Up-Rated Towing Suspension

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 21:59:50 GMT, 351CJ > wrote:

>Bill Jeffrey wrote:
>> Big Bill wrote:
>>
>>> Bill Jeffrey wrote:
>>>
>>>> limeybiker wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The front wheels still seem a little light, we will be hauling an
>>>>> 800lb Honda Valkyrie, so with that weight towards the rear the nose
>>>>> weight will decrease, though I have yet to tow it, other than
>>>>> bringing the RV home.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bingo. If the front wheels feel light, air bags or shocks will NOT
>>>> help. Only a weight-distributing hitch will put the weight back
>>>> where it belongs. And rear-weighting the trailer, in an effort to
>>>> reduce the tongue weight, is an invitation to disaster in the form of
>>>> uncontrollable trailer sway. You MUST have at least 10% (and 12-14%
>>>> is better) of the trailer weight on the tongue. Then you MUST have a
>>>> WD hitch, properly adjusted so that it re-levels the tow vehicle.
>>>>
>>>> "Properly adjusted" means this.
>>>> 1. Without the trailer, measure the height of the front and rear
>>>> bumpers above ground.
>>>> 2. With the trailer loaded and ready for the road, drop the trailer
>>>> tongue onto the hitch ball. Remeasure the front and rear bumper
>>>> height. You will find that the rear end has squatted and the front
>>>> end has risen (unweighted). This front-end unweighting is DANGEROUS.
>>>> 3. Snap up the spring bars, and measure the front and rear heights
>>>> again. If you chose the correct link on the springbar chains, the
>>>> front and rear of the tow vehicle will both squat, and will squat by
>>>> the same amount from their original height in step 1. If they don't
>>>> squat equally, then choose a different link in the springbar chains.
>>>> Keep trying different links until you find the one that produces
>>>> equal squat.
>>>>
>>>> HTH
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> He still hasn't weighed the trailer yet.
>>> It's very possible with the added stuff, the trailer is overweight for
>>> the truck. A weight distributing hitch will not correct for this.
>>
>>
>> You are absolutely correct, Big Bill. If the trailer weighs 5000 pounds
>> empty and unoptioned, and he adds all his stuff, and 100 gallons (850
>> pounds) of water, and food and clothes and pots and pans and a TV and a
>> microwave and ..., and then adds tools for the bike, and then adds an
>> 800-pound bike - he is probably headed for 7500-8000 pounds loaded and
>> ready to roll. So a first question whether his vehicle is ready for
>> that kind of load. If not, then he is done before he starts. However,
>> IF he can convince himself that his particular Expedition, equipped as
>> his is equipped (factory tow package, for example?) can handle the load,
>> then he MUST have a WD hitch, he MUST adjust it properly, and he MUST
>> avoid all the spurious advice to cram some air bags into the rear
>> suspension to level it.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>Damn!
>Obviously you have never used airbags!
>
>I have installed them on two 3/4 ton 4x4 trucks, a '88 Ford Gas & a '94
>Dodge diesel, I work the hell out of my Trucks, carry very heavy loads
>of firewood in the bed, tow from 6000-14000 pound trailers with them. I
>have loaded and driven both trucks before and after the air bag
>installations, the difference was night and day better with the air
>bags. It's kinda like sex, until you've tried it you have no ****ing
>clue what it's all about.
>
If you are talking about *handling*, I agree.
If you are talking about CVWR or GCWR, you're just wrong. Airbag
suspension add-ons don't increase either.
If you don't believe me, ask the people who market them.

--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

Big Bill wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 21:59:50 GMT, 351CJ > wrote:
>
>
>>Bill Jeffrey wrote:
>>
>>>Big Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bill Jeffrey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>limeybiker wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>The front wheels still seem a little light, we will be hauling an
>>>>>>800lb Honda Valkyrie, so with that weight towards the rear the nose
>>>>>>weight will decrease, though I have yet to tow it, other than
>>>>>>bringing the RV home.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Bingo. If the front wheels feel light, air bags or shocks will NOT
>>>>>help. Only a weight-distributing hitch will put the weight back
>>>>>where it belongs. And rear-weighting the trailer, in an effort to
>>>>>reduce the tongue weight, is an invitation to disaster in the form of
>>>>>uncontrollable trailer sway. You MUST have at least 10% (and 12-14%
>>>>>is better) of the trailer weight on the tongue. Then you MUST have a
>>>>>WD hitch, properly adjusted so that it re-levels the tow vehicle.
>>>>>
>>>>>"Properly adjusted" means this.
>>>>>1. Without the trailer, measure the height of the front and rear
>>>>>bumpers above ground.
>>>>>2. With the trailer loaded and ready for the road, drop the trailer
>>>>>tongue onto the hitch ball. Remeasure the front and rear bumper
>>>>>height. You will find that the rear end has squatted and the front
>>>>>end has risen (unweighted). This front-end unweighting is DANGEROUS.
>>>>>3. Snap up the spring bars, and measure the front and rear heights
>>>>>again. If you chose the correct link on the springbar chains, the
>>>>>front and rear of the tow vehicle will both squat, and will squat by
>>>>>the same amount from their original height in step 1. If they don't
>>>>>squat equally, then choose a different link in the springbar chains.
>>>>>Keep trying different links until you find the one that produces
>>>>>equal squat.
>>>>>
>>>>>HTH
>>>>>
>>>>>Bill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>He still hasn't weighed the trailer yet.
>>>>It's very possible with the added stuff, the trailer is overweight for
>>>>the truck. A weight distributing hitch will not correct for this.
>>>
>>>
>>>You are absolutely correct, Big Bill. If the trailer weighs 5000 pounds
>>>empty and unoptioned, and he adds all his stuff, and 100 gallons (850
>>>pounds) of water, and food and clothes and pots and pans and a TV and a
>>>microwave and ..., and then adds tools for the bike, and then adds an
>>>800-pound bike - he is probably headed for 7500-8000 pounds loaded and
>>>ready to roll. So a first question whether his vehicle is ready for
>>>that kind of load. If not, then he is done before he starts. However,
>>>IF he can convince himself that his particular Expedition, equipped as
>>>his is equipped (factory tow package, for example?) can handle the load,
>>>then he MUST have a WD hitch, he MUST adjust it properly, and he MUST
>>>avoid all the spurious advice to cram some air bags into the rear
>>>suspension to level it.
>>>
>>>Bill
>>>
>>
>>Damn!
>>Obviously you have never used airbags!
>>
>>I have installed them on two 3/4 ton 4x4 trucks, a '88 Ford Gas & a '94
>>Dodge diesel, I work the hell out of my Trucks, carry very heavy loads
>>of firewood in the bed, tow from 6000-14000 pound trailers with them. I
>>have loaded and driven both trucks before and after the air bag
>>installations, the difference was night and day better with the air
>>bags. It's kinda like sex, until you've tried it you have no ****ing
>>clue what it's all about.
>>
>
> If you are talking about *handling*, I agree.
> If you are talking about CVWR or GCWR, you're just wrong. Airbag
> suspension add-ons don't increase either.
> If you don't believe me, ask the people who market them.
>

What?

Nothing you do to your suspension will officially raise/change the
original manufactures GVWR or GCWR, and a weight distribution hitch dose
nothing to address that anyway.

The original poster asked for some suggestions for a stiffer rear
suspension, I suggested air bags, and they fit the bill perfectly.

On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 02:17:15 GMT, 351CJ > wrote:

>Big Bill wrote:
>> On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 21:59:50 GMT, 351CJ > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Bill Jeffrey wrote:
>>>
>>>>Big Bill wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Bill Jeffrey wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>limeybiker wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The front wheels still seem a little light, we will be hauling an
>>>>>>>800lb Honda Valkyrie, so with that weight towards the rear the nose
>>>>>>>weight will decrease, though I have yet to tow it, other than
>>>>>>>bringing the RV home.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Bingo. If the front wheels feel light, air bags or shocks will NOT
>>>>>>help. Only a weight-distributing hitch will put the weight back
>>>>>>where it belongs. And rear-weighting the trailer, in an effort to
>>>>>>reduce the tongue weight, is an invitation to disaster in the form of
>>>>>>uncontrollable trailer sway. You MUST have at least 10% (and 12-14%
>>>>>>is better) of the trailer weight on the tongue. Then you MUST have a
>>>>>>WD hitch, properly adjusted so that it re-levels the tow vehicle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Properly adjusted" means this.
>>>>>>1. Without the trailer, measure the height of the front and rear
>>>>>>bumpers above ground.
>>>>>>2. With the trailer loaded and ready for the road, drop the trailer
>>>>>>tongue onto the hitch ball. Remeasure the front and rear bumper
>>>>>>height. You will find that the rear end has squatted and the front
>>>>>>end has risen (unweighted). This front-end unweighting is DANGEROUS.
>>>>>>3. Snap up the spring bars, and measure the front and rear heights
>>>>>>again. If you chose the correct link on the springbar chains, the
>>>>>>front and rear of the tow vehicle will both squat, and will squat by
>>>>>>the same amount from their original height in step 1. If they don't
>>>>>>squat equally, then choose a different link in the springbar chains.
>>>>>>Keep trying different links until you find the one that produces
>>>>>>equal squat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>HTH
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Bill
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>He still hasn't weighed the trailer yet.
>>>>>It's very possible with the added stuff, the trailer is overweight for
>>>>>the truck. A weight distributing hitch will not correct for this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You are absolutely correct, Big Bill. If the trailer weighs 5000 pounds
>>>>empty and unoptioned, and he adds all his stuff, and 100 gallons (850
>>>>pounds) of water, and food and clothes and pots and pans and a TV and a
>>>>microwave and ..., and then adds tools for the bike, and then adds an
>>>>800-pound bike - he is probably headed for 7500-8000 pounds loaded and
>>>>ready to roll. So a first question whether his vehicle is ready for
>>>>that kind of load. If not, then he is done before he starts. However,
>>>>IF he can convince himself that his particular Expedition, equipped as
>>>>his is equipped (factory tow package, for example?) can handle the load,
>>>>then he MUST have a WD hitch, he MUST adjust it properly, and he MUST
>>>>avoid all the spurious advice to cram some air bags into the rear
>>>>suspension to level it.
>>>>
>>>>Bill
>>>>
>>>
>>>Damn!
>>>Obviously you have never used airbags!
>>>
>>>I have installed them on two 3/4 ton 4x4 trucks, a '88 Ford Gas & a '94
>>>Dodge diesel, I work the hell out of my Trucks, carry very heavy loads
>>>of firewood in the bed, tow from 6000-14000 pound trailers with them. I
>>>have loaded and driven both trucks before and after the air bag
>>>installations, the difference was night and day better with the air
>>>bags. It's kinda like sex, until you've tried it you have no ****ing
>>>clue what it's all about.
>>>
>>
>> If you are talking about *handling*, I agree.
>> If you are talking about CVWR or GCWR, you're just wrong. Airbag
>> suspension add-ons don't increase either.
>> If you don't believe me, ask the people who market them.
>>
>
>What?
>
>Nothing you do to your suspension will officially raise/change the
>original manufactures GVWR or GCWR, and a weight distribution hitch dose
>nothing to address that anyway.
>
>The original poster asked for some suggestions for a stiffer rear
>suspension, I suggested air bags, and they fit the bill perfectly.
>
>
Read what I wrote; we don't disagree, on *handling*.
What the OP didn't say was *why* he wanted a stiffer suspension;
usually, when towing is the concern, it's for extra load carrying
capacitry, which airbags won't provide.

--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

Big Bill wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 02:17:15 GMT, 351CJ > wrote:
>
>
>>Big Bill wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 21:59:50 GMT, 351CJ > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bill Jeffrey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Big Bill wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Bill Jeffrey wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>limeybiker wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The front wheels still seem a little light, we will be hauling an
>>>>>>>>800lb Honda Valkyrie, so with that weight towards the rear the nose
>>>>>>>>weight will decrease, though I have yet to tow it, other than
>>>>>>>>bringing the RV home.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Bingo. If the front wheels feel light, air bags or shocks will NOT
>>>>>>>help. Only a weight-distributing hitch will put the weight back
>>>>>>>where it belongs. And rear-weighting the trailer, in an effort to
>>>>>>>reduce the tongue weight, is an invitation to disaster in the form of
>>>>>>>uncontrollable trailer sway. You MUST have at least 10% (and 12-14%
>>>>>>>is better) of the trailer weight on the tongue. Then you MUST have a
>>>>>>>WD hitch, properly adjusted so that it re-levels the tow vehicle.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Properly adjusted" means this.
>>>>>>>1. Without the trailer, measure the height of the front and rear
>>>>>>>bumpers above ground.
>>>>>>>2. With the trailer loaded and ready for the road, drop the trailer
>>>>>>>tongue onto the hitch ball. Remeasure the front and rear bumper
>>>>>>>height. You will find that the rear end has squatted and the front
>>>>>>>end has risen (unweighted). This front-end unweighting is DANGEROUS.
>>>>>>>3. Snap up the spring bars, and measure the front and rear heights
>>>>>>>again. If you chose the correct link on the springbar chains, the
>>>>>>>front and rear of the tow vehicle will both squat, and will squat by
>>>>>>>the same amount from their original height in step 1. If they don't
>>>>>>>squat equally, then choose a different link in the springbar chains.
>>>>>>>Keep trying different links until you find the one that produces
>>>>>>>equal squat.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>HTH
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Bill
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>He still hasn't weighed the trailer yet.
>>>>>>It's very possible with the added stuff, the trailer is overweight for
>>>>>>the truck. A weight distributing hitch will not correct for this.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>You are absolutely correct, Big Bill. If the trailer weighs 5000 pounds
>>>>>empty and unoptioned, and he adds all his stuff, and 100 gallons (850
>>>>>pounds) of water, and food and clothes and pots and pans and a TV and a
>>>>>microwave and ..., and then adds tools for the bike, and then adds an
>>>>>800-pound bike - he is probably headed for 7500-8000 pounds loaded and
>>>>>ready to roll. So a first question whether his vehicle is ready for
>>>>>that kind of load. If not, then he is done before he starts. However,
>>>>>IF he can convince himself that his particular Expedition, equipped as
>>>>>his is equipped (factory tow package, for example?) can handle the load,
>>>>>then he MUST have a WD hitch, he MUST adjust it properly, and he MUST
>>>>>avoid all the spurious advice to cram some air bags into the rear
>>>>>suspension to level it.
>>>>>
>>>>>Bill
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Damn!
>>>>Obviously you have never used airbags!
>>>>
>>>>I have installed them on two 3/4 ton 4x4 trucks, a '88 Ford Gas & a '94
>>>>Dodge diesel, I work the hell out of my Trucks, carry very heavy loads
>>>>of firewood in the bed, tow from 6000-14000 pound trailers with them. I
>>>>have loaded and driven both trucks before and after the air bag
>>>>installations, the difference was night and day better with the air
>>>>bags. It's kinda like sex, until you've tried it you have no ****ing
>>>>clue what it's all about.
>>>>
>>>
>>>If you are talking about *handling*, I agree.
>>>If you are talking about CVWR or GCWR, you're just wrong. Airbag
>>>suspension add-ons don't increase either.
>>>If you don't believe me, ask the people who market them.
>>>
>>
>>What?
>>
>>Nothing you do to your suspension will officially raise/change the
>>original manufactures GVWR or GCWR, and a weight distribution hitch dose
>>nothing to address that anyway.
>>
>>The original poster asked for some suggestions for a stiffer rear
>>suspension, I suggested air bags, and they fit the bill perfectly.
>>
>>
>
> Read what I wrote; we don't disagree, on *handling*.
> What the OP didn't say was *why* he wanted a stiffer suspension;
> usually, when towing is the concern, it's for extra load carrying
> capacitry, which airbags won't provide.
>

"load carrying capacity, which airbags won't provide."

Uhm, Officially changing the original manufactures GVWR or GCWR, no, But
allowing you to greatly exceed that rating and keep your front end from
floating and you rear suspension form bottoming out, airbags absolutely
will provide that...

That '94 Dodge I mentioned, the guy that has it now, regularly hauls a
lot of firewood, both for all his own heating and for sale. He has
totally worn out 2 roller fairleads on his 12,000 pound warn winch
skidding the logs out to cut up and load into that truck. His loads
regularly exceed GVWR, and without the airbags, he absolutely would not
have the extra load carrying capacity that they do indeed provide.

Are you sure you know what you are saying?

With all due deference to your obviously massive experience with both
airbags and sex, I disagree.

Think back to your grade-school days. You remember a playground device
called a teeter-totter? A long rigid board - you push down on one end,
it pivots around a point in the center, and the other end rises. If you
don't push down quite hard enough, the other end doesn't rise, but it
unweights.

That's exactly what's going on here. If you drop a weight onto the
hitch ball (like pushing down on one end of the teeter-totter), then the
vehicle pivots around the rear axle, and the front end unweights. On an
Expedition, it is probably 4 feet from the hitch ball to the rear axle,
and 8 feet from the rear axle to the front axle. If you drop 700 pounds
on the hitch ball, then you remove about 350 pounds from the front axle.
This is why the front end of the vehicle RISES an inch or two when
you put weight on the hitch ball. The Ford engineers did not design the
front end geometry and suspension to operate correctly when 350 pounds
of downforce is removed from the assembly. The result is that the
vehicle starts to feel kind of "floaty", and trailer sway is encouraged,
and is much harder to handle. Needless to say, this is dangerous. And
an airbag may jack up the rear end, but it won't restore the missing
weight on the front suspension.

There is a second issue with the brake proportioning valve, but I don't
sense any desire on your part to examine real issues. Seems it's just
macho cowboy for you.

Your example of firewood in the bed is irrelevant. That weight is
loaded BETWEEN the axles, so there is no teeter-totter effect.

Bill
================

351CJ wrote:

> Bill Jeffrey wrote:
>
>> Big Bill wrote:
>>
>>> Bill Jeffrey wrote:
>>>
>>>> limeybiker wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The front wheels still seem a little light, we will be hauling an
>>>>> 800lb Honda Valkyrie, so with that weight towards the rear the nose
>>>>> weight will decrease, though I have yet to tow it, other than
>>>>> bringing the RV home.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bingo. If the front wheels feel light, air bags or shocks will NOT
>>>> help. Only a weight-distributing hitch will put the weight back
>>>> where it belongs. And rear-weighting the trailer, in an effort to
>>>> reduce the tongue weight, is an invitation to disaster in the form
>>>> of uncontrollable trailer sway. You MUST have at least 10% (and
>>>> 12-14% is better) of the trailer weight on the tongue. Then you
>>>> MUST have a WD hitch, properly adjusted so that it re-levels the tow
>>>> vehicle.
>>>>
>>>> "Properly adjusted" means this.
>>>> 1. Without the trailer, measure the height of the front and rear
>>>> bumpers above ground.
>>>> 2. With the trailer loaded and ready for the road, drop the trailer
>>>> tongue onto the hitch ball. Remeasure the front and rear bumper
>>>> height. You will find that the rear end has squatted and the front
>>>> end has risen (unweighted). This front-end unweighting is DANGEROUS.
>>>> 3. Snap up the spring bars, and measure the front and rear heights
>>>> again. If you chose the correct link on the springbar chains, the
>>>> front and rear of the tow vehicle will both squat, and will squat by
>>>> the same amount from their original height in step 1. If they don't
>>>> squat equally, then choose a different link in the springbar
>>>> chains. Keep trying different links until you find the one that
>>>> produces equal squat.
>>>>
>>>> HTH
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> He still hasn't weighed the trailer yet.
>>> It's very possible with the added stuff, the trailer is overweight for
>>> the truck. A weight distributing hitch will not correct for this.
>>
>>
>>
>> You are absolutely correct, Big Bill. If the trailer weighs 5000
>> pounds empty and unoptioned, and he adds all his stuff, and 100
>> gallons (850 pounds) of water, and food and clothes and pots and pans
>> and a TV and a microwave and ..., and then adds tools for the bike,
>> and then adds an 800-pound bike - he is probably headed for 7500-8000
>> pounds loaded and ready to roll. So a first question whether his
>> vehicle is ready for that kind of load. If not, then he is done
>> before he starts. However, IF he can convince himself that his
>> particular Expedition, equipped as his is equipped (factory tow
>> package, for example?) can handle the load, then he MUST have a WD
>> hitch, he MUST adjust it properly, and he MUST avoid all the spurious
>> advice to cram some air bags into the rear suspension to level it.
>>
>> Bill
>>
> Damn!
> Obviously you have never used airbags!
>
> I have installed them on two 3/4 ton 4x4 trucks, a '88 Ford Gas & a '94
> Dodge diesel, I work the hell out of my Trucks, carry very heavy loads
> of firewood in the bed, tow from 6000-14000 pound trailers with them. I
> have loaded and driven both trucks before and after the air bag
> installations, the difference was night and day better with the air
> bags. It's kinda like sex, until you've tried it you have no ****ing
> clue what it's all about.
>
>

On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 19:13:31 GMT, 351CJ > wrote:

>"load carrying capacity, which airbags won't provide."
>
>Uhm, Officially changing the original manufactures GVWR or GCWR, no, But
>allowing you to greatly exceed that rating and keep your front end from
>floating and you rear suspension form bottoming out, airbags absolutely
>will provide that...
>
>That '94 Dodge I mentioned, the guy that has it now, regularly hauls a
>lot of firewood, both for all his own heating and for sale. He has
>totally worn out 2 roller fairleads on his 12,000 pound warn winch
>skidding the logs out to cut up and load into that truck. His loads
>regularly exceed GVWR, and without the airbags, he absolutely would not
>have the extra load carrying capacity that they do indeed provide.
>
>Are you sure you know what you are saying?

Yup!
I have to wonder why you continue this. Do you think that only the
springs determine the weight ratings? It seems so.
A little more education on what constitutes a weight rating will make
you rethink this.

--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

Aw fer Chrissakes! Do whatever your ignorant mind tells you to do, but
please don't mislead the newbies who are looking for a legitimate answer
to a legitimate question. The roads are dangerous enough with idiots
like you out there, overloading your vehicles and begging for
sway-induced oscillations.

Bill
========================

351CJ wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The front wheels still seem a little light, we will be hauling
>>>>>>>>> an 800lb Honda Valkyrie, so with that weight towards the rear
>>>>>>>>> the nose weight will decrease, though I have yet to tow it,
>>>>>>>>> other than bringing the RV home.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bingo. If the front wheels feel light, air bags or shocks will
>>>>>>>> NOT help. Only a weight-distributing hitch will put the weight
>>>>>>>> back where it belongs. And rear-weighting the trailer, in an
>>>>>>>> effort to reduce the tongue weight, is an invitation to disaster
>>>>>>>> in the form of uncontrollable trailer sway. You MUST have at
>>>>>>>> least 10% (and 12-14% is better) of the trailer weight on the
>>>>>>>> tongue. Then you MUST have a WD hitch, properly adjusted so
>>>>>>>> that it re-levels the tow vehicle.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Properly adjusted" means this.
>>>>>>>> 1. Without the trailer, measure the height of the front and
>>>>>>>> rear bumpers above ground.
>>>>>>>> 2. With the trailer loaded and ready for the road, drop the
>>>>>>>> trailer tongue onto the hitch ball. Remeasure the front and
>>>>>>>> rear bumper height. You will find that the rear end has squatted
>>>>>>>> and the front end has risen (unweighted). This front-end
>>>>>>>> unweighting is DANGEROUS.
>>>>>>>> 3. Snap up the spring bars, and measure the front and rear
>>>>>>>> heights again. If you chose the correct link on the springbar
>>>>>>>> chains, the front and rear of the tow vehicle will both squat,
>>>>>>>> and will squat by the same amount from their original height in
>>>>>>>> step 1. If they don't squat equally, then choose a different
>>>>>>>> link in the springbar chains. Keep trying different links until
>>>>>>>> you find the one that produces equal squat.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He still hasn't weighed the trailer yet.
>>>>>>> It's very possible with the added stuff, the trailer is
>>>>>>> overweight for
>>>>>>> the truck. A weight distributing hitch will not correct for this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are absolutely correct, Big Bill. If the trailer weighs 5000
>>>>>> pounds empty and unoptioned, and he adds all his stuff, and 100
>>>>>> gallons (850 pounds) of water, and food and clothes and pots and
>>>>>> pans and a TV and a microwave and ..., and then adds tools for the
>>>>>> bike, and then adds an 800-pound bike - he is probably headed for
>>>>>> 7500-8000 pounds loaded and ready to roll. So a first question
>>>>>> whether his vehicle is ready for that kind of load. If not, then
>>>>>> he is done before he starts. However, IF he can convince himself
>>>>>> that his particular Expedition, equipped as his is equipped
>>>>>> (factory tow package, for example?) can handle the load, then he
>>>>>> MUST have a WD hitch, he MUST adjust it properly, and he MUST
>>>>>> avoid all the spurious advice to cram some air bags into the rear
>>>>>> suspension to level it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Damn!
>>>>> Obviously you have never used airbags!
>>>>>
>>>>> I have installed them on two 3/4 ton 4x4 trucks, a '88 Ford Gas & a
>>>>> '94 Dodge diesel, I work the hell out of my Trucks, carry very
>>>>> heavy loads of firewood in the bed, tow from 6000-14000 pound
>>>>> trailers with them. I have loaded and driven both trucks before
>>>>> and after the air bag installations, the difference was night and
>>>>> day better with the air bags. It's kinda like sex, until you've
>>>>> tried it you have no ****ing clue what it's all about.
>>>>
>>>> If you are talking about *handling*, I agree.
>>>> If you are talking about CVWR or GCWR, you're just wrong. Airbag
>>>> suspension add-ons don't increase either.
>>>> If you don't believe me, ask the people who market them.
>>>
>>> What?
>>> Nothing you do to your suspension will officially raise/change the
>>> original manufactures GVWR or GCWR, and a weight distribution hitch
>>> dose nothing to address that anyway.
>>>
>>> The original poster asked for some suggestions for a stiffer rear
>>> suspension, I suggested air bags, and they fit the bill perfectly.
>>
>> Read what I wrote; we don't disagree, on *handling*.
>> What the OP didn't say was *why* he wanted a stiffer suspension;
>> usually, when towing is the concern, it's for extra load carrying
>> capacitry, which airbags won't provide.
>>
> "load carrying capacity, which airbags won't provide."
>
> Uhm, Officially changing the original manufactures GVWR or GCWR, no, But
> allowing you to greatly exceed that rating and keep your front end from
> floating and you rear suspension form bottoming out, airbags absolutely
> will provide that...
>
> That '94 Dodge I mentioned, the guy that has it now, regularly hauls a
> lot of firewood, both for all his own heating and for sale. He has
> totally worn out 2 roller fairleads on his 12,000 pound warn winch
> skidding the logs out to cut up and load into that truck. His loads
> regularly exceed GVWR, and without the airbags, he absolutely would not
> have the extra load carrying capacity that they do indeed provide.
>
> Are you sure you know what you are saying?
>

Bill Jeffrey wrote:
> With all due deference to your obviously massive experience with both
> airbags and sex, I disagree.
>
> Think back to your grade-school days. You remember a playground device
> called a teeter-totter? A long rigid board - you push down on one end,
> it pivots around a point in the center, and the other end rises. If you
> don't push down quite hard enough, the other end doesn't rise, but it
> unweights.
>
> That's exactly what's going on here. If you drop a weight onto the
> hitch ball (like pushing down on one end of the teeter-totter), then the
> vehicle pivots around the rear axle, and the front end unweights. On an
> Expedition, it is probably 4 feet from the hitch ball to the rear axle,
> and 8 feet from the rear axle to the front axle. If you drop 700 pounds
> on the hitch ball, then you remove about 350 pounds from the front axle.
> This is why the front end of the vehicle RISES an inch or two when you
> put weight on the hitch ball. The Ford engineers did not design the
> front end geometry and suspension to operate correctly when 350 pounds
> of downforce is removed from the assembly. The result is that the
> vehicle starts to feel kind of "floaty", and trailer sway is encouraged,
> and is much harder to handle. Needless to say, this is dangerous. And
> an airbag may jack up the rear end, but it won't restore the missing
> weight on the front suspension.
>
> There is a second issue with the brake proportioning valve, but I don't
> sense any desire on your part to examine real issues. Seems it's just
> macho cowboy for you.
>
> Your example of firewood in the bed is irrelevant. That weight is
> loaded BETWEEN the axles, so there is no teeter-totter effect.
>
> Bill
> ================
>
> 351CJ wrote:
>
>> Bill Jeffrey wrote:
>>
>>> Big Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bill Jeffrey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> limeybiker wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The front wheels still seem a little light, we will be hauling an
>>>>>> 800lb Honda Valkyrie, so with that weight towards the rear the
>>>>>> nose weight will decrease, though I have yet to tow it, other than
>>>>>> bringing the RV home.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bingo. If the front wheels feel light, air bags or shocks will NOT
>>>>> help. Only a weight-distributing hitch will put the weight back
>>>>> where it belongs. And rear-weighting the trailer, in an effort to
>>>>> reduce the tongue weight, is an invitation to disaster in the form
>>>>> of uncontrollable trailer sway. You MUST have at least 10% (and
>>>>> 12-14% is better) of the trailer weight on the tongue. Then you
>>>>> MUST have a WD hitch, properly adjusted so that it re-levels the
>>>>> tow vehicle.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Properly adjusted" means this.
>>>>> 1. Without the trailer, measure the height of the front and rear
>>>>> bumpers above ground.
>>>>> 2. With the trailer loaded and ready for the road, drop the
>>>>> trailer tongue onto the hitch ball. Remeasure the front and rear
>>>>> bumper height. You will find that the rear end has squatted and the
>>>>> front end has risen (unweighted). This front-end unweighting is
>>>>> DANGEROUS.
>>>>> 3. Snap up the spring bars, and measure the front and rear heights
>>>>> again. If you chose the correct link on the springbar chains, the
>>>>> front and rear of the tow vehicle will both squat, and will squat
>>>>> by the same amount from their original height in step 1. If they
>>>>> don't squat equally, then choose a different link in the springbar
>>>>> chains. Keep trying different links until you find the one that
>>>>> produces equal squat.
>>>>>
>>>>> HTH
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> He still hasn't weighed the trailer yet.
>>>> It's very possible with the added stuff, the trailer is overweight for
>>>> the truck. A weight distributing hitch will not correct for this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You are absolutely correct, Big Bill. If the trailer weighs 5000
>>> pounds empty and unoptioned, and he adds all his stuff, and 100
>>> gallons (850 pounds) of water, and food and clothes and pots and pans
>>> and a TV and a microwave and ..., and then adds tools for the bike,
>>> and then adds an 800-pound bike - he is probably headed for 7500-8000
>>> pounds loaded and ready to roll. So a first question whether his
>>> vehicle is ready for that kind of load. If not, then he is done
>>> before he starts. However, IF he can convince himself that his
>>> particular Expedition, equipped as his is equipped (factory tow
>>> package, for example?) can handle the load, then he MUST have a WD
>>> hitch, he MUST adjust it properly, and he MUST avoid all the spurious
>>> advice to cram some air bags into the rear suspension to level it.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>> Damn!
>> Obviously you have never used airbags!
>>
>> I have installed them on two 3/4 ton 4x4 trucks, a '88 Ford Gas & a
>> '94 Dodge diesel, I work the hell out of my Trucks, carry very heavy
>> loads of firewood in the bed, tow from 6000-14000 pound trailers with
>> them. I have loaded and driven both trucks before and after the air
>> bag installations, the difference was night and day better with the
>> air bags. It's kinda like sex, until you've tried it you have no
>> ****ing clue what it's all about.
>>
>>
>


OK, if for discussion sake, we take what you just said as true, how
exactly does the effect of the air bag differ from the effect of the
weight distributing hitch?

Take your teeter-totter analogy, if you stick a jack stand under the
heavy end, (or simply clamp the teeter-totter securely to the pivot
point so it can no longer pivot, more closely resembling the geometry of
the air bags) the light end will NOT get any lighter as you increase the
weight on the heavy end. When your weight exceeds the structural
integrity of the teeter-totters 2x10 it will snap, but it will not
unload the light end.

"If you drop 700 pounds on the hitch ball, then you remove about 350
pounds from the front axle." How do you lift the weight off the front
end if there is no pivot action going on? You don't. Because of the
air bag there is drastically less pivot, hence drastically less weight
shift, the air bags are absolutely providing extra load carrying capacity,

An airbag does not "jack up" the rear end, but it does keep the weight
from pivoting at the rear axle, not unlike a weight distribution hitch.
The air bags reduce the leverage of the "weight" on the tow hitch,
hence An airbag doesn't allow the weight to be lifted from the front
suspension in the first place.

My example of firewood in the bed is relevant, as a direct rebuttal to
Big Bill's statement "What the OP didn't say was *why* he wanted a
stiffer suspension; usually, when towing is the concern, it's for extra
load carrying capacity, which airbags won't provide."

Please do try to follow along. Unlike you, I'll refrain from adding a
few half-assed insults.

OK I'll top post with ya.

Aw fer Christ sake!
BULL****!~
I did not say or suggest that anyone overload their vehicles!

I insist you are full of crap if you continue trying to argue that air
bags do not physically enhance the load carrying capacity of an existing
pickup trucks suspension.

If your argument were true, then stiffer springs would make no
difference. Consequently, there would be no sane reason for the
manufacture to put a stiffer spring on the front of a truck for their
snow plow package. But, they do put a stiffer spring on for
better/increased weight carrying (yes weight with leverage) capacity off
the front of the truck.

Air bags serve the same purpose as "stiffer springs" and factory
overload springs! The do indeed enhance load carrying capacity. The
amount of leverage (weight on the tail gate or weight on the trailer
hitch) does not change the physical dynamics, other than to multiply the
weight/force.

I'm not talking about exceeding weight ratings, I am talking about the
laws of physics.



Bill Jeffrey wrote:
> Aw fer Chrissakes! Do whatever your ignorant mind tells you to do, but
> please don't mislead the newbies who are looking for a legitimate answer
> to a legitimate question. The roads are dangerous enough with idiots
> like you out there, overloading your vehicles and begging for
> sway-induced oscillations.
>
> Bill
> ========================
>
> 351CJ wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The front wheels still seem a little light, we will be hauling
>>>>>>>>>> an 800lb Honda Valkyrie, so with that weight towards the rear
>>>>>>>>>> the nose weight will decrease, though I have yet to tow it,
>>>>>>>>>> other than bringing the RV home.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bingo. If the front wheels feel light, air bags or shocks will
>>>>>>>>> NOT help. Only a weight-distributing hitch will put the weight
>>>>>>>>> back where it belongs. And rear-weighting the trailer, in an
>>>>>>>>> effort to reduce the tongue weight, is an invitation to
>>>>>>>>> disaster in the form of uncontrollable trailer sway. You MUST
>>>>>>>>> have at least 10% (and 12-14% is better) of the trailer weight
>>>>>>>>> on the tongue. Then you MUST have a WD hitch, properly
>>>>>>>>> adjusted so that it re-levels the tow vehicle.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Properly adjusted" means this.
>>>>>>>>> 1. Without the trailer, measure the height of the front and
>>>>>>>>> rear bumpers above ground.
>>>>>>>>> 2. With the trailer loaded and ready for the road, drop the
>>>>>>>>> trailer tongue onto the hitch ball. Remeasure the front and
>>>>>>>>> rear bumper height. You will find that the rear end has
>>>>>>>>> squatted and the front end has risen (unweighted). This
>>>>>>>>> front-end unweighting is DANGEROUS.
>>>>>>>>> 3. Snap up the spring bars, and measure the front and rear
>>>>>>>>> heights again. If you chose the correct link on the springbar
>>>>>>>>> chains, the front and rear of the tow vehicle will both squat,
>>>>>>>>> and will squat by the same amount from their original height in
>>>>>>>>> step 1. If they don't squat equally, then choose a different
>>>>>>>>> link in the springbar chains. Keep trying different links
>>>>>>>>> until you find the one that produces equal squat.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He still hasn't weighed the trailer yet.
>>>>>>>> It's very possible with the added stuff, the trailer is
>>>>>>>> overweight for
>>>>>>>> the truck. A weight distributing hitch will not correct for this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are absolutely correct, Big Bill. If the trailer weighs 5000
>>>>>>> pounds empty and unoptioned, and he adds all his stuff, and 100
>>>>>>> gallons (850 pounds) of water, and food and clothes and pots and
>>>>>>> pans and a TV and a microwave and ..., and then adds tools for
>>>>>>> the bike, and then adds an 800-pound bike - he is probably headed
>>>>>>> for 7500-8000 pounds loaded and ready to roll. So a first
>>>>>>> question whether his vehicle is ready for that kind of load. If
>>>>>>> not, then he is done before he starts. However, IF he can
>>>>>>> convince himself that his particular Expedition, equipped as his
>>>>>>> is equipped (factory tow package, for example?) can handle the
>>>>>>> load, then he MUST have a WD hitch, he MUST adjust it properly,
>>>>>>> and he MUST avoid all the spurious advice to cram some air bags
>>>>>>> into the rear suspension to level it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Damn!
>>>>>> Obviously you have never used airbags!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have installed them on two 3/4 ton 4x4 trucks, a '88 Ford Gas &
>>>>>> a '94 Dodge diesel, I work the hell out of my Trucks, carry very
>>>>>> heavy loads of firewood in the bed, tow from 6000-14000 pound
>>>>>> trailers with them. I have loaded and driven both trucks before
>>>>>> and after the air bag installations, the difference was night and
>>>>>> day better with the air bags. It's kinda like sex, until you've
>>>>>> tried it you have no ****ing clue what it's all about.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you are talking about *handling*, I agree.
>>>>> If you are talking about CVWR or GCWR, you're just wrong. Airbag
>>>>> suspension add-ons don't increase either.
>>>>> If you don't believe me, ask the people who market them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What?
>>>> Nothing you do to your suspension will officially raise/change the
>>>> original manufactures GVWR or GCWR, and a weight distribution hitch
>>>> dose nothing to address that anyway.
>>>>
>>>> The original poster asked for some suggestions for a stiffer rear
>>>> suspension, I suggested air bags, and they fit the bill perfectly.
>>>
>>>
>>> Read what I wrote; we don't disagree, on *handling*.
>>> What the OP didn't say was *why* he wanted a stiffer suspension;
>>> usually, when towing is the concern, it's for extra load carrying
>>> capacitry, which airbags won't provide.
>>>
>> "load carrying capacity, which airbags won't provide."
>>
>> Uhm, Officially changing the original manufactures GVWR or GCWR, no,
>> But allowing you to greatly exceed that rating and keep your front end
>> from floating and you rear suspension form bottoming out, airbags
>> absolutely will provide that...
>>
>> That '94 Dodge I mentioned, the guy that has it now, regularly hauls a
>> lot of firewood, both for all his own heating and for sale. He has
>> totally worn out 2 roller fairleads on his 12,000 pound warn winch
>> skidding the logs out to cut up and load into that truck. His loads
>> regularly exceed GVWR, and without the airbags, he absolutely would
>> not have the extra load carrying capacity that they do indeed provide.
>>
>> Are you sure you know what you are saying?
>>
>

Big Bill wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 19:13:31 GMT, 351CJ > wrote:
>
>
>>"load carrying capacity, which airbags won't provide."
>>
>>Uhm, Officially changing the original manufactures GVWR or GCWR, no, But
>>allowing you to greatly exceed that rating and keep your front end from
>>floating and you rear suspension form bottoming out, airbags absolutely
>>will provide that...
>>
>>That '94 Dodge I mentioned, the guy that has it now, regularly hauls a
>>lot of firewood, both for all his own heating and for sale. He has
>>totally worn out 2 roller fairleads on his 12,000 pound warn winch
>>skidding the logs out to cut up and load into that truck. His loads
>>regularly exceed GVWR, and without the airbags, he absolutely would not
>>have the extra load carrying capacity that they do indeed provide.
>>
>>Are you sure you know what you are saying?
>
>
> Yup!
> I have to wonder why you continue this. Do you think that only the
> springs determine the weight ratings? It seems so.
> A little more education on what constitutes a weight rating will make
> you rethink this.
>

Education?

I specifically said you could not "Officially change the original
manufactures GVWR or GCWR"!!! Did you miss that?

ON THE OTHER HAND, The "weight ratings" have a VERY generous "safety
factor" built in, its very similar to a pressure vessel "pressure
rating", no where near the true physical limits of that pressure vessel.
Yes these ratings are a real number that have official, and legal
ramifications if they are exceeded, but they aren't an actual physical
limit.

Springs are not the only component that contribute to arriving at a
given "weight rating", but they have a greater contribution than any
other single component.

My position is that The SPRINGS have an overwhelming true physical
effect on the ride and handling characteristics of any pickup truck, and
that relationship DOES NOT simply magically evaporate when you are are
loaded in excess of a grossly conservative original manufactures GVWR or
GCWR weight rating!

Either you do not understand what I am saying, or you have no clue what
you are talking about!