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brake problems on 74 super beetle



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 19th 05, 10:30 AM
Peter
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"Grahame Rumballe" wrote in message...
>
> Am very interested in the "gauge" can either of you point me to where
> it is in literature or please send me scan/image.
> thanks


Mine is on microfiche and I have no way to 'lift' the image. If Jim can't
send you anything I can reproduce it for you, but I will need a few days.
However, in a later VW workshop manual, it says to just simply measure the
travel. Makes the gauge may seem like over-kill.


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  #12  
Old July 19th 05, 02:17 PM
Jim Adney
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On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 06:07:57 -0400 "Peter"
> wrote:

>"Jim Adney" wrote in message...
>>
>> This is a little hard to describe, but I'll try......

>
>Thank you, I understood perfectly. So much so, that I went through all my
>stuff and eventually found the same gauge spec sheet, as you describe. It
>is interesting that there is an up-rated version for mid-69 and later Bugs,
>which may be due to body work changes. The manual mentions that an extra
>depression in the bodywork was made, for the 71 models to allow the slightly
>taller pedals to have the permissible travel.


I wonder what happened in mid-69 that made a change necessary. The
tandem MC had been around for 2.5 years by that time. Could the '71
comment be aimed at Super beetles? I thought all of these used the
same pedal cluster.

>According to the VW pedal specifications, the brake pedal should have a
>minimum travel of 190mm. Bentley states 200mm and the gauge 'appears' to
>provide even more (205 and 220mm). The simplest way to check (IMO) is to
>remove the pushrod and simply measure the pedal travel.


What I have is a scan sent to me by Dave Hall in the UK. It's
interesting that the numbers on this sheet are 210mm (unlabled, but
presumably for early beetles) and 225mm (for mid '69 beetles and
later, as well as for Type 3s.) There's no tool # on the sheet, just
"local manufacture" and I don't see any date, but I believe this was
out of a printed book, rather than microfilm, so I'm guessing that
your image is later.

Is the 220mm on your image also for Type 3s?

>VW's wording (although not wrong) of the pushrod length having been "factory
>adjusted" or "the factory has set the length" has caused confusion. It has
>been assumed that there is a universal specific length for the pushrod, of
>which the dimension remains a well kept secret (VW's '7X'). What they
>should have made clear, was that each and every pushrod has been adjusted to
>suit each and every individual vehicle. This is why the rod was made
>adjustable, as otherwise, it would have been a cheaper 'fixed' length
>component.


I agree completely. This has cause a LOT of confusion to a LOT of
people.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------
  #13  
Old July 19th 05, 02:21 PM
Jim Adney
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On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 04:13:34 GMT "Grahame Rumballe"
> wrote:

>Peter or Jim
>
>Am very interested in the "gauge" can either of you point me to where
>it is in literature or please send me scan/image.


I have a scan, and I'll email you a copy. Mine appears to be earlier
and slightly different, but you can get the idea from this and change
the numbers if you like.

OTOH, Peter's suggestion to just measure is quite reasonable. I think
he's mistaken about removing the pushrod, however. I believe that you
would just push the pedal forward until the free play goes away and
then measure from the back of the pedal to the firewall.

Then adjust the pushrod until that measurement agrees with the spec.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------
  #14  
Old July 19th 05, 10:49 PM
Peter
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"Jim Adney" wrote in message...

> I wonder what happened in mid-69 that made a change necessary. The
> tandem MC had been around for 2.5 years by that time. Could the '71
> comment be aimed at Super beetles? I thought all of these used the
> same pedal cluster.


I don't know why the change in 69 but I assumed that it had something to do
with the depression in the bodywork, referred to in the change for 71. I
figure that they increased the pedal travel in 69 by making a recess in the
front cross panel, for the pedal to seat further down into, rather than
moving th pedals rearward. The change for 71 had to do with re-aligning the
brake pedal closer to the accelerator.

> What I have is a scan sent to me by Dave Hall in the UK. It's
> interesting that the numbers on this sheet are 210mm (unlabled, but
> presumably for early beetles) and 225mm (for mid '69 beetles and
> later, as well as for Type 3s.) There's no tool # on the sheet, just
> "local manufacture" and I don't see any date, but I believe this was
> out of a printed book, rather than microfilm, so I'm guessing that
> your image is later.


The page on my microfiche is dated 9/70. It also shows 210 & 225mm, but I
deducted the 5mm 'cut-off' shown on the diagram as that would represent a
more true dimension.

> Is the 220mm on your image also for Type 3s?


Yes (shown as 225mm)


  #15  
Old July 19th 05, 10:50 PM
Peter
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"Jim Adney" wrote in message...

> OTOH, Peter's suggestion to just measure is quite reasonable. I think
> he's mistaken about removing the pushrod, however. I believe that you
> would just push the pedal forward until the free play goes away and
> then measure from the back of the pedal to the firewall.


In the 1975 VW workshop manual, they make no mention of the gauge and say to
first set the pedal free-play at 190mm, then set the pushrod. I think if
they wanted you to take into account the pushrod free-play as extra to the
pedal free-play, they would have indicated so. Removing the pushrod is my
suggestion, as it is not always obvious where the pedal hits the front cross
panel (carpets etc). As the measurement is 'free-play' as apposed to a
'distance', I figure that if you depress it till it stops, place the tape
and measure back. At least, that is how I have done it before.


  #16  
Old July 20th 05, 05:21 AM
Grahame Rumballe
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"Jim Adney" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 04:13:34 GMT "Grahame Rumballe"
> > wrote:
>
> >Peter or Jim
> >
> >Am very interested in the "gauge" can either of you point me to where
> >it is in literature or please send me scan/image.

>
> I have a scan, and I'll email you a copy. Mine appears to be earlier
> and slightly different, but you can get the idea from this and change
> the numbers if you like.


Receive it - thanks Jim
I have some old "Volkswagenwerk AG Wolfsburg" books - "Workshop Equipment
for Local Manufacture"
but have not seen that tool mentioned.

>
> OTOH, Peter's suggestion to just measure is quite reasonable. I think
> he's mistaken about removing the pushrod, however. I believe that you
> would just push the pedal forward until the free play goes away and
> then measure from the back of the pedal to the firewall.
>
> Then adjust the pushrod until that measurement agrees with the spec.
>

I agree
> -
> -----------------------------------------------
> Jim Adney
> Madison, WI 53711 USA
> -----------------------------------------------


And thanks to Peter and Jim, for discussing this.

After 30 years wear and tear, accident damage, replacement, body and pan
swaps.
It did not hold true when told "do not adjust the push rod length"

Grahame
from Australia


  #17  
Old July 21st 05, 04:10 AM
Jim Adney
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On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:49:57 -0400 "Peter"
> wrote:

>The page on my microfiche is dated 9/70. It also shows 210 & 225mm, but I
>deducted the 5mm 'cut-off' shown on the diagram as that would represent a
>more true dimension.
>
>> Is the 220mm on your image also for Type 3s?

>
>Yes (shown as 225mm)


I couldn't imagine what you meant by the "cut-off" so I went back and
looked at the scan again. I had never noticed that before. Now I agree
that your numbers make more sense than the numbers I was reading off
the print.

It makes sense to blunt the important corners on this gauge, but I
wonder why they only blunted one? Is there any indication of which
side we are supposed to face to the firewall?

Now that you've called this to our attention, I think I would blunt
both corners this way, while preserving the dimensions you quoted.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------
  #18  
Old July 21st 05, 11:12 AM
Peter
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"Jim Adney" wrote in message...

> It makes sense to blunt the important corners on this gauge, but I
> wonder why they only blunted one? Is there any indication of which
> side we are supposed to face to the firewall?


From the photo (in the manual) of the gauge in use, the blunt end is for the
back of the pedal pad. The 'pointed' other end may not actually contact the
surface of the cross panel, as this may occur further down that edge.


  #19  
Old July 22nd 05, 05:49 AM
Grahame Rumballe
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"Peter" > wrote in message ...
>
> "Jim Adney" wrote in message...
>
> > It makes sense to blunt the important corners on this gauge, but I
> > wonder why they only blunted one? Is there any indication of which
> > side we are supposed to face to the firewall?

>
> From the photo (in the manual) of the gauge in use, the blunt end is for the
> back of the pedal pad. The 'pointed' other end may not actually contact the
> surface of the cross panel, as this may occur further down that edge.
>
>

Peter & Jim

I have already discussed with Jim that -
After viewing the scan - It bears little resemblance to the original "Workshop Equipment for
Local Manufacture" sheets. It has a very amateurish look and feel.
I wonder if it's a real "local thing" i.e. that it's just that dealer/service people who
thought it may be a could idea to produce a gauge.
May be Dave can help?
But back to the gauge, I interpret it as dimension "b"
as a scribe mark on the plate to line up with the back of the pedal.
At that point the pushrod is adjusted with no play.
Then move pedal back to the point on the gauge and adjust the stop plate
for pedal position.
This will give the minimum 5mm freeplay (approx 1mm on the rod).

Grahame
from Aus
  #20  
Old July 22nd 05, 12:48 PM
Peter
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"Grahame Rumballe" wrote in message...

> After viewing the scan - It bears little resemblance to the original
> "Workshop Equipment for Local Manufacture" sheets. It has a
> very amateurish look and feel. I wonder if it's a real "local thing"
> i.e. that it's just that dealer/service people who thought it may be
> a could idea to produce a gauge.


It comes from the official VW Germany produced 'Workshop Manual' and does
not appear amateurish on my version. It was not a tool that you could order
from VW, whereas I think the majority (if not all) in the 'Local
Manufacture' manual were also available from the plant (I would have to go
through them all to be sure).

> But back to the gauge, I interpret it as dimension "b" as a scribe
> mark on the plate to line up with the back of the pedal. At that point
> the pushrod is adjusted with no play. Then move pedal back to the
> point on the gauge and adjust the stop plate for pedal position.
> This will give the minimum 5mm freeplay (approx 1mm on the rod).


My version is not scanned and so may be more clear. The diagram does not
state anywhere that the 'cut-off' is a "scribe mark". It also shows the
portion of the template, not including the area outside the 'cut-off', in a
darker (or thicker) line. This clearly indicates that the extra 5mm outside
of the 'cut-off' should not be retained. Along with this diagram (on the
following pages) it states that the "pedal free travel" is to be obtained
first (with the gauge) and then the pushrod should be adjusted to obtain the
play with the master cylinder. Nowhere, in the instructions, does it
explain using the template to measure the pushrod free-play. There is also
an introduction, on these pages, which suggests that the pushrod free-play
is included in the 'pedal free travel'.


 




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