auto tune up

This dates back to the first advent of "electronic" distributors. Used
to be, part of tuneup was checking, cleaning and adjusting points or
replacement if needed. When breakerless distributors first came out,
shops claimed they were more complex, hence needed more work to tune
(not true). Breakerless ignitions did not get out of time (unless other
work was done) so checking timing became a thing you did just 'cause you
should. But impact was we paid more for less work (unless we did it
ourselves).

Disk brakes were similar. Actually less work to check and replace pads
(and disks) than on most older drum brakes. But 'cause you may have
paid extra for option of disk brakes, shops charged a premium to service
them.

Good thing now is that modern engines need tuneups far less often :-)

Look at the brand and model printed on your new plugs and wires and get
prices for them from an auto parts store. If they are out of line you
could ask why you were charged so much. I've written to the mayor of a
town where a shop attempted to rip me off on a vacation trip. After
getting the estimate I drove off and had the work done elsewhere.

"Al" ) writes:
> I went to a auto-repair shop here in Destin, FL. I have a 1998 Toyota
> Senna minivan - V6.
> I had a tune-up done that consisted of new spark plugs ($108 parts),
> wires ($98 parts) + labor ($249).
> Also, PCV ($40 part), fuel filter ($12 part) + labor ($91)
> The total before tax was $644.76.
> I was flabergasted at the cost. How does this compare with other
> replair shops?
> Thanks, Al
>


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

In article >,
Lawrence_Glickman > wrote:

> >If the OE plug was an Iridium plug, very much in line.
> >Some of the NGKs are $29.00 each.
> >(ho-lee sheeeit!)
>
> That is something that needs to be researched ( on my part ), not
> having the price list in front of me. I have to call the dealership
> every time I need parts, or drive over there, to find out what the
> "Price de Jour" is for this and that.

I'm 99% certain that that vehicle uses Iridium spark plugs as
most late model Toyotas do.
>
> It just _sounds_ high, doesn't it?

To the unfamiliar, yes.
The unfamiliar are quick to call crook, even though they know not
of what they're talking about.

> >Premium Belden wires list for around $85.00, so not totally out
> >of line. OEM Toyota wires are probably a bit higher.

> >Depends on the labor time, which I don't have at hand right now.
> >Some mini vans are a bitch for access.
> >If the intake manifold lays over the spark plugs and wires, the
> >labor isn't surprising.
>
> My intake manifold lays over 3 of my plugs and wires. Taking off the
> manifold and some associated connectors/hoses doesn't seem like brain
> surgery. Looks like 4 bolts hold the manifold on, and there are a few
> hoses that might need to be disconnected before I can elevate the
> assembly up and out of the way to allow me free access to the plugs.

But you aren't driving a Toyota Sienna. FWIW, the labor time to
change the spark plugs in a V-6 Sienna is 2.4 hours

> >After market PCV valves can be disaster, best check on a price
> >from Toyota.
>
> It is also possible to CLEAN a PCV valve in a few minutes by spraying
> some carb cleaner or throttle plate cleaner through it, and
> re-installing the original. There is 1 moving part inside ( a metal
> weight ). Not much chance of damaging the dang thing unless you hit
> it with a hammer.

No professional is going to do that.
Bear in mind, this is an 8 year old van.


> >Hmmm... I wonder where the fuel filter is located on a Sienna?
> ><note> look that up also.
>
> Mine is forward of the rr wheel. A small PITA getting to it since the
> clearance back there is very close to the ground. And next time I do
> that, I'm going to put a tray underneath to catch the gas that spills
> out of the fuel lines and especially the filter. I didn't realize
> that a fuel filter could hold that much fuel. Lots.

As a rule, Toyota doesn't usually put their fuel filters in
easily accessible places. My guess (never done a Sienna) is it's
down low on the firewall in the engine compartment and not very
accessible.

> >He approved the bill before work was started right?
>
> I dunno. Did he ask for an *estimate* first? give them a max he was
> willing to pay for any unexpected discoveries? Only his hairdresser
> knows for sure.
>
> >Right or wrong in this case, finding out what maintenance costs
> >on a vehicle are -after- the purchase is doing things backwards,
> >and certainly will not help the market correct itself.
>
> TRUE, how very true.
>
> Nevertheless, the *general consensus* from the reporting n/g posters
> seem to favor this guy having been =hosed= in more ways than one.

The "reporting n/g posters" don't know their ass from a hole in
the ground _AND_ obviously can't think past their noses.
Here's why:
This vehicle is probably at or near 100K miles, and is getting
it's _first_ service on the ignition system. $644 may sound high,
but not when one considers the actual cost per mile.
Let's compare it to another mini van, a 1995 Chevrolet Astro.
Parts:
Spark plugs $3.29(a dollar over cost) times 6= $19.74
Wire set $61.09
Fuel filter $24.43
Distributor cap $20.07
Ignition rotor $8.35
PCV valve $6.00?
Parts total $140.00
Labor:
Replace spark plugs 1.3 hours X$70.00= $91.00
Replace ignition wires 1.1 hours X$70.00=$77.00
Labor total $168.00
Total parts and labor (so far) $308.00

$308.00 spent every 30K miles X3 equals a lot less than he was
charged.

Out of line?

Not at all. (given some facts)

In article >,
Don Stauffer > wrote:

> This dates back to the first advent of "electronic" distributors. Used
> to be, part of tuneup was checking, cleaning and adjusting points or
> replacement if needed. When breakerless distributors first came out,
> shops claimed they were more complex, hence needed more work to tune
> (not true).

Or, maybe by this point in automotive evolution, air pumps, air
conditioning, added emissions controls and other obstructions
became more commonplace and things really -were- harder to do.

> Breakerless ignitions did not get out of time (unless other
> work was done) so checking timing became a thing you did just 'cause you
> should. But impact was we paid more for less work (unless we did it
> ourselves).

Right. Timing chains never stretched making timing
check/adjustment necessary.

> Disk brakes were similar. Actually less work to check and replace pads
> (and disks) than on most older drum brakes. But 'cause you may have
> paid extra for option of disk brakes, shops charged a premium to service
> them.

Many of the first disc brake systems had 4 piston calipers that
needed rebuilding at time of service, things progressed to single
piston calipers and if they were manufactured by Kelsey-Hayes,
you didn't dare NOT rebuild them.

> Good thing now is that modern engines need tuneups far less often :-)

Something that everyone seems to be ignoring in this particular
instance.

In article >,
(William R. Watt) wrote:

> Look at the brand and model printed on your new plugs and wires and get
> prices for them from an auto parts store. If they are out of line you
> could ask why you were charged so much. I've written to the mayor of a
> town where a shop attempted to rip me off on a vacation trip. After
> getting the estimate I drove off and had the work done elsewhere.

What the hell was the mayor going to do?

aarcuda69062 wrote:
> In article >,
> Lawrence_Glickman > wrote:
>
> > >If the OE plug was an Iridium plug, very much in line.
> > >Some of the NGKs are $29.00 each.
> > >(ho-lee sheeeit!)
> >
> > That is something that needs to be researched ( on my part ), not
> > having the price list in front of me. I have to call the dealership
> > every time I need parts, or drive over there, to find out what the
> > "Price de Jour" is for this and that.
>
> I'm 99% certain that that vehicle uses Iridium spark plugs as
> most late model Toyotas do.
> >
> > It just _sounds_ high, doesn't it?
>
> To the unfamiliar, yes.
> The unfamiliar are quick to call crook, even though they know not
> of what they're talking about.
>
> > >Premium Belden wires list for around $85.00, so not totally out
> > >of line. OEM Toyota wires are probably a bit higher.
>
> > >Depends on the labor time, which I don't have at hand right now.
> > >Some mini vans are a bitch for access.
> > >If the intake manifold lays over the spark plugs and wires, the
> > >labor isn't surprising.
> >
> > My intake manifold lays over 3 of my plugs and wires. Taking off the
> > manifold and some associated connectors/hoses doesn't seem like brain
> > surgery. Looks like 4 bolts hold the manifold on, and there are a few
> > hoses that might need to be disconnected before I can elevate the
> > assembly up and out of the way to allow me free access to the plugs.
>
> But you aren't driving a Toyota Sienna. FWIW, the labor time to
> change the spark plugs in a V-6 Sienna is 2.4 hours
>
> > >After market PCV valves can be disaster, best check on a price
> > >from Toyota.
> >
> > It is also possible to CLEAN a PCV valve in a few minutes by spraying
> > some carb cleaner or throttle plate cleaner through it, and
> > re-installing the original. There is 1 moving part inside ( a metal
> > weight ). Not much chance of damaging the dang thing unless you hit
> > it with a hammer.
>
> No professional is going to do that.
> Bear in mind, this is an 8 year old van.
>
>
> > >Hmmm... I wonder where the fuel filter is located on a Sienna?
> > ><note> look that up also.
> >
> > Mine is forward of the rr wheel. A small PITA getting to it since the
> > clearance back there is very close to the ground. And next time I do
> > that, I'm going to put a tray underneath to catch the gas that spills
> > out of the fuel lines and especially the filter. I didn't realize
> > that a fuel filter could hold that much fuel. Lots.
>
> As a rule, Toyota doesn't usually put their fuel filters in
> easily accessible places. My guess (never done a Sienna) is it's
> down low on the firewall in the engine compartment and not very
> accessible.
>
> > >He approved the bill before work was started right?
> >
> > I dunno. Did he ask for an *estimate* first? give them a max he was
> > willing to pay for any unexpected discoveries? Only his hairdresser
> > knows for sure.
> >
> > >Right or wrong in this case, finding out what maintenance costs
> > >on a vehicle are -after- the purchase is doing things backwards,
> > >and certainly will not help the market correct itself.
> >
> > TRUE, how very true.
> >
> > Nevertheless, the *general consensus* from the reporting n/g posters
> > seem to favor this guy having been =hosed= in more ways than one.
>
> The "reporting n/g posters" don't know their ass from a hole in
> the ground _AND_ obviously can't think past their noses.
> Here's why:
> This vehicle is probably at or near 100K miles, and is getting
> it's _first_ service on the ignition system. $644 may sound high,
> but not when one considers the actual cost per mile.
> Let's compare it to another mini van, a 1995 Chevrolet Astro.
> Parts:
> Spark plugs $3.29(a dollar over cost) times 6= $19.74
> Wire set $61.09
> Fuel filter $24.43
> Distributor cap $20.07
> Ignition rotor $8.35
> PCV valve $6.00?
> Parts total $140.00
> Labor:
> Replace spark plugs 1.3 hours X$70.00= $91.00
> Replace ignition wires 1.1 hours X$70.00=$77.00
> Labor total $168.00
> Total parts and labor (so far) $308.00
>
> $308.00 spent every 30K miles X3 equals a lot less than he was
> charged.
>
> Out of line?
>
> Not at all. (given some facts)

I agree 100% Some people are quick to open their mouth without knowing
what the heck they are talking about.

In article
>,
aarcuda69062 > wrote:

> $308.00 spent every 30K miles X3 equals a lot less than he was
> charged. ^^^^

Make that 'more.'

In article .com>,
says...
>
>
>I went to a auto-repair shop here in Destin, FL. I have a 1998 Toyota
>Senna minivan - V6.
>I had a tune-up done that consisted of new spark plugs ($108 parts),
>wires ($98 parts) + labor ($249).
>Also, PCV ($40 part), fuel filter ($12 part) + labor ($91)
>The total before tax was $644.76.
>I was flabergasted at the cost. How does this compare with other
>replair shops?

What did you ask them to do? Right away the cost of the sparks plugs seem
quite steep. My guess is they charged that much for plugs, all the other
parts were similarly overpriced. What is their labor rate?
---------------
Alex

In article >, says...

>Disk brakes were similar. Actually less work to check and replace pads
>(and disks) than on most older drum brakes. But 'cause you may have
>paid extra for option of disk brakes, shops charged a premium to service
>them.

I never understood this. I can change a disc brake in less than half the time
of a drum brake, yet the price is ths same, or higher, as getting drum brakes
serviced. I just change the brakes myself and save myself the expense and
hassle of taking the car to the shop.
--------------
Alex

In article >,
says...
>
>
>In article >,
> (William R. Watt) wrote:
>
>> Look at the brand and model printed on your new plugs and wires and get
>> prices for them from an auto parts store. If they are out of line you
>> could ask why you were charged so much. I've written to the mayor of a
>> town where a shop attempted to rip me off on a vacation trip. After
>> getting the estimate I drove off and had the work done elsewhere.
>
>What the hell was the mayor going to do?

My guess is he thought the shop was overcharging him because he was not
a local person. So by complaining to the mayor he was hoping the mayor would
try to get all the shops to stop this practice. That might bring in more
tourist dollars.
-----------
Alex