Magnulus wrote:
> "N8N" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
> "Assuming this is a serious comment, the older cars were also a hell
of
> a lot lighter. This is in part due to the mandatory safety equipment
> that's been added (airbags, bumpers, etc.) and in part to the
creature
> comforts buyers now demand that weren't dreamed of years ago."
>
> And yet, some folks claim that new cars are lighter than older
cars due
> to CAFE standards.

In absolute terms, yes. However, they are also generally smaller than
the average car of 20-30 years ago - whereas older cars of the same
size were often a lot lighter.

>
> "To illustrate, my '55 Studebaker coupe probably weighs less than
your
> new Jetta example - and has a 225HP V-8. By contrast, your early
Civic
> maybe weighed 2200 lbs. soaking wet (a guess, but I bet I'm not far
> off.) So power-to-weight ratios are actually fairly comparable Civic
> vs. Jetta, although the Jetta has a slight advantage. "
>
> My Jetta weighs about 3100 pounds. About the same as a Toyota
Camry.
> Some of that is no doubt due to the diesel engine having more weight.


Not really. VW didn't "beef up" the engine casting any for the
diesels, it was strong enough to begin with.

> But
> even a gas VW Beetle (the new one) weighs near 3000 pounds.

Yeah, my point. You can't buy a much smaller car than that, and yet an
old Stude (or Valiant, Nova, or other old "compact" car) weighed the
same or less, while often offering more interior and trunk space.

>
> The original civic weighed 1500 lbs. That's less than a Honda
Insight,
> but I believe more than a VW Lupo (Euro minicompact, gets 80 mpg).

Exactly (although I didn't realize it was that light.) About the only
car available in the US in that weight range would be a Lotus.

>
> So the hp to weight ratio would be, with the MPG consumption:
>
> Jetta TDI wagon 0.03 45 mpg
> Early Honda Civic 0.03 40+ mpg
> 1988 Honda Civic CRX-HF 0.03 40+ mpg
> 2005 Honda Civic: 0.05 36 mpg
> 2005 Honda Accord: 0.06 29 mpg
> 2005 Ford Focus 0.05 28.5
> 2005 Toyota Camry: 0.06 25 mpg
> Dodge Viper: 0.14 16.5 mpg
>
> You can see a generalized trend towards more power and
acceleration =
> lower fuel economy.
>
> "Imagine both the
> performance and economy that would be possible with a TDI-style
engine
> in a light body, like say an early Scirocco or Rabbit. But of course
> people wouldn't buy such a minimalist vehicle, practical and
economical
> though it would be. "
>
> The problem with light cars- how to make them safe enough, and how
to
> ensure they handle well.

Handling well is not a problem. It's easier to make a light car handle
than it is a heavy one (it's fairly easy to make a heavy car generate
good skidpad numbers, but transitional maneuvers like a slalom or
autocross course become more and more difficult as weight goes up.) A
Scirocco or Rabbit with GTI springs and struts and good tires handles
more than well enough to embarass many more modern cars. "safe enough"
- well are we concerned with active or passive safety? If by "safety"
you mean good handling, acceleration, and braking that allows you to
avoid an incident, then the light car wins hands down. If you are more
concerned with NHTSA crash test ratings, then the heavy car has an
advantage - but not as much as you'd think, there have been some very
good small car designs in the past few years (example: the recent story
on the comparitive crash performance of a Mini vs. an F-150) Now
*ride* is where the heavy car shines - you can get away with softer
(comparitively) springs in a heavy car while still maintaining
acceptable handling, but to achieve the same ride in a light car you
would have to lower the spring rate to the point of dangerous cornering
performance.

> That means you have to find materials and designs
> that are both light and strong. Suppossedly the all-aluminum Audi
A2 and
> VW Lupo have good-to-acceptable crash ratings for their respective
classes-
> by European standards (which in some ways are better than the US's,
in some
> ways, more forgiving).

yeah, but they'd never sell here. Why, I don't understand. I wouldn't
mind having the opportunity to buy a Lupo GTI for instance.

nate