Joe,

Ok, I forgot about this argument I started with you, LOL...

Joe enlightened us with:
> "Plowboy" > wrote in message
> news:AYzBe.70805$%Z2.67811@lakeread08...
>> JOE, JOE, HELLO?
>>
>
> Hi
>
>> Each and every "version" of NR that papy put out the door was
>> specifically eventually patched,

FWIW, even back to NR04, When the patch was done, the GD game worked, to the
reasonable ability of the game & the rules and the representation it was
attempting to make. Black flags, passing under yellow wrecks, spotters, pit
road violations, driving conditions all that taken into account. This is
so unlike what EA produced. IMHO they spent more time racing a car at the
track than they did writing the code and testing the game? the only
solution is a complete code rewrite. Not my fault, but it is true, wont
work as established, of the rules in place before the beta was even out for
private testing, only a bout 1 in 3 are done even close. in fact that is
probably exactly why they quit fixing it, I think they have realized it is
beyond fixing... sorry. my guess is, that if they continue with this game,
next
release of any kind will be NSR2006. They proven this with their other
titles. what more proof do ya need?
last projection was at A minimum 3 patches away from a usable product...
papy's stuff was usable, might have had a glitch in scoring, or drawing the
cars or collisions (depending on your view of how important those are) but
the concept of the game, gameplay and online play were proven to run since
the 1st version (you ever hear of the online beta testing referred to as
Nascar Racing's Hawaii?) then came the1st place even have multiplayer (TEN
gaming) then one of the 1st few games to freely host open lobbies for
customers.


> You are correct. I also said as much with "Papy's practice of
> one-patch-per-game" I am glad you agree.
> By the way, why did you put the quotes around "version"

Because my point was like Madden football for christ's sake, or everything
else EA produces, they dont fix ****, they re release with what the
community already does on its own on this Papyrus tittle. for cryin out
loud, if madden or tiger woods could not even keep score if you kicked a
field goal, or sacked the qb, or if sinking a 5 over par shot on the green
from the fringe more or less crashed the game for you, you would be livid!!!
you dont think a bull**** black flag by passing a car that has crashed into
the wall at full speed with 12 other cars, is a unbeliveable serious bug?

**** man, I mean, give some credit where credit is due, the fact that at one
track the pace car might act up, or if you followed too close to another car
as he pitted and gave you a BF, are workable & avoidable bugs, but oly way
to not get a BF while racing NSR is to sit in the pits, sorry.... IMHO.


>> most of the patches were for funky systems specs some were for
>> gameplay
>
> You say "most" of the patches were for system specs and "some" were
> for gameplay? GOOD FOR YOU! Your grasp of the obvious is impressive!
> (By "funky systems specs" I assume you mean correcting code that was
> causing lock-ups, desktop drops and the like.)

No, just one example for you, and admittely worse back then than now, bu not
unlike now there were 2 competing (3 if you count Microsoft's
dirctx) graffix card languages used to draw games to the monitors, of them
each were new, they supported and half of the 'specs' for each, there was
one standard (remember the OPENGL?) and one MFG of cards (voodoo) decide to
build their own custom language. They were not fully used, documented, let
alone debugged, plus you had MS monkeying with everything, Back then, you
didn't necessarily have the latest and greatest everytime a game came along,
for crying out loud my 1st 3 pc's cost about 3 grand each without even a OS
on my 1st 2. Toss into the mix the adware and crap 90% of the gaming
population have with their pc's it is a wonder some games can even run!

Oh and some MS's History for you... this doesn't even include the long list
of DOS you could buy in the same time frames...
1983Microsoft Windows was announced November, 1983 and sells for $100.00.
1985Microsoft Windows 1.0 is introduced in November, 1985 and is initially
sold for $100.00.
1987Microsoft Windows 2.0 was released December 9, 1987 and is initially
sold for $100.00.
1987Microsoft Windows/386 or Windows 386 is introduced December 9, 1987 and
is initially sold for $100.00.
1988Microsoft Windows/286 or Windows 286 is introduced June, 1988 and is
initially sold for $100.00.
1990Microsoft Windows 3.0 was released May, 22 1990. Microsoft Windows 3.0
full version was priced at $149.95 and the upgrade version was priced at
$79.95.
1991Microsoft Windows 3.0 or Windows 3.0a with multimedia was released
October, 1991.
1992Microsoft Windows 3.1 was released April, 1992 and sells more than 1
Million copies within the first two months of its release.
1992Microsoft Windows for Workgroups 3.1 was released October, 1992.
1993Microsoft Windows NT 3.1 was released August, 1993.
1993The number of licensed users of Microsoft Windows now totals more then
25 Million.
1994Microsoft Windows for Workgroups 3.11 was released February, 1994

So now today, what are we on, like direct x revision version 23, since
inception?

In this argument.... I think it is not fair in reality to hold everyone to
a higher standard than you hold your own arguments, at least I can be
relative and correct when I said in the 1st 2 versions windows itself
compromised most of the problems, or DOS versions, but you prolly don't know
that since you prolly been gaming since what, win98 (sorry it is a guess)?
do you know my 1st PC with any version of windows, was my 2nd or 3rd PC?
and that the version I had was version 2.0 that POS operating system
wouldn't
run Nascar, but 3.1 did finally so who's fault? I don't think it was Papy's
sorry...

>
>> , however NSR it is the exact opposite.
>
> You say that each and every version of NR was patched. This is true.
> It is also true that each and every version of NSR was patched. How,
> in your mind, does this make NSR "the exact opposite"?

NSR has not been patched other than to say "technically" it has because they
said so, they fixed what, how a couple things are drawn? did they fix
multiplayer? Fix the flags (offline) or anything? no!!!!

did they attempt to yet? no. did they make the game usable with the
patch as it is? no, so how you call it a patch? you do because it was
called a patch. ****, the aftermarket cars and stuff that used to be found
online like the US-Pits would be called Patches 'technically' by your
definition. yet I don't have to have the patch to go online NsR AFAIK.

>
>> They shipped 'out the door' something that is UTTERLY worthless as
>> not only a sim, but for multiplayer.
>
> An opinion many disagree with. There are few who would not
> acknowledge that NR2003 is superior to NSR but your "UTTERLY
> worthless" characterization of NSR is simple minded. (A pattern
> emerges.)

Not worthless as what? I mean technically my 1st non PC computer (circa
1977 which is a TANDY 1000) is not WORHTLESS, I mean I could use it, if
nothing else as a boat anchor... You cannot race online UNLESS you
equivocally deny any and all standards that are out for gameplay, at that
point, I say fine, you don't care it doesn't matter, but I hate it. BTW I
liked some of NSR, do I bother to race it? No, not where there are much
better alternatives to the POS.

>> Papyrus might have gotten off easy, in your mind because the not only
>> built the damn ruler but set the bar higher with every release and or
>> patch, what can EA honestly bragg about?
>
> In my post I said that the volume of complaints thrown at Papy were
> about the same as that now leveled at EA and NSR By what mental
> process did you take these statements to mean I think Papy "got off
> easy"?
> I also said that every Papy release "had the advantage of being the
> best available at the time" Run this through that mental process of
> yours and tell me how you interpret it.

Look, I had to make an assumption cause you and I aren't siskell and or
ebert
on TV, arguing across the aisle in real time, I also used that 'analogy and
statement' to impart some information to you as to why I might say it is
thumbs up or down, to me it is down, I've documented my side although thinly
here in this thread, as I could prolly write a thick book nobody wants to
read about why I say what I say...
>
> Just where did I imply EA had anything to bragg about?
>
> Are you familier with the term "Straw Man"?
>
>> I know this is what you mean when you post that people popped money
>> out for Papy "turds?" lol I find that very funny.
>
> The name "Plowboy" carries with it a stereotype you do little to
> dispell.

I finish this diviersion below...

> Pay attention while I explain. The term "turds" was introduced by
> Darius in the post I replied to. I repeated his term, *put it in
> quotes* and applied it to NR2002, NR4, etc NOT to label these as
> "turds" but only as a mechanism to point out that these were, like
> NSR, also inferior to NR2003. You seem to be the only one in the
> thread who did not grasp this. In order to avoid such
> misunderstandings in the future I suggest you announce your intention
> to participate in a thread before you make any actual comments. That
> way others involved in the discussion will know to write at a grade
> level less likely to cause you the confusion you display throughout
> your post.
>>
>> Here's you...
>> "Uhm, UUUUHHHHM , well it is like a great racing game just like and
>> as great as 'Need For Speed' but you go around a circular track..."
>> Zero support. BTW I have tried most driving games, even EA's
>> Bull****, and on the PC, what you playing, Nintendo?
>
> An example of your rapier wit?

I thought it was funny as I think your comebacks are witty, shame you get so
****y about it, after all it is just an arguement about an opinion.
>
> In order to be effective, ridicule must be based on and aimed at some
> observable aspects of the subject ridiculed.

You have no idea what Plowboy means.... But FYI, as I have grown up on the
farm, even as a kid, I have had to learn more than the quickest way across
town to earn my pay. Im not only the financial planner, Tax Advisor, the
bread winner, I am the mechanic, the beta tester, Market Research Analysist,
**** scooper, I have more experience at more facits in life and work in a 12
hour day than anything short of the military (been there done that too). On
the farm, I am all that, & the laborer & now that I am a little older, the
CEO. So well, it is funny how you bring all this up earlier and again now
in your diatribe against me?

Me thinks you are living the stereo type protrayed by hollywood there, you
and put out there that plowboy is "well goooo ooooo leeeeee seargeant, I
didnt know pushing on the gas pedal would make the jeep run over your
foot!!!!" where in fact everything you have put out on this topic makes me
think Gomer Pyle. "NSR is just great, if you dont speed in the pits, dont
want to run in any organized online events, turn off all the rules and
flags... yada yada.." the list runs on and on with you.

> attempts at ridicule are only pathetic, simple-minded name calling. There
> are only a few posts from me in this thread so you should have
> no trouble at all providing us with a cut-and-paste of the anchor on
> which you tie your attempt at ridicule. Just where did I say anything
> remotely similar to your "Here's you"?
>
> Perhaps you would also grace us with an equally clever "Here's
> Darius" so you can gibber and giggle at him for saying: "Joe You
> make some valid points."

Hell, maybe he thought you had some? I didnt didnt mean I dont like you
btw, I didnt like your opinion but **** man, I dont like all of my friends'
opinions of everything, ****.
>> Here's the rest of the sim racing community,
>> "Need For Speed?" That is like saying Mongoose Bicycles (in
>> walmart) are not bad compared to Schwin's at the bicycle shop, for
>> the same dollar price"
>> BOLOGNA!!!!.
>
> Forgive me Plowboy. I did not realize you are the spokesman for "the
>rest of the sim racing community"

well again, I been online long time, I personally think most were, maybe
most of my online generation is gone from here....

> If you are saying that NSR (Mongoose Bicycles) is "not bad compared
> to" and is "the same dollar price" as NR2003 (Schwin) then yes, that
> is indeed "BOLOGNA!!!!"

> Just where exactly did I ever state otherwise?

Would that be where you said NR4 & NR02 were exactly like NsR (version 1)?

OOOOKKKKAAAAAYYYYYY then.


last thing:

By any chance do you own a car? does the 1999 version of the honda
accord seem to be so radically different than the version made in 96? how
about 2005? are they not 2 or 4 door front wheel drive automobiles? with
some mentality, How dare honda not make a complete and different car every
year? hmmmm.... but, if no, why buy it?

More to the point here as I see it:
Lets compare the HONDA (papyrus's product) to the Yugo (NSR's product) or
even say, the 74 Pinto? Which would you want to own, even when both were
built the same year (and there was a year they both were new models with the
timespan difference we're talking about here with NR4, 02, & 03 and NSR?
Yet we'd have to modify this to say they cost the same price at the dealer
(unlike the real comparison of the honda vs yugo, & Pinto (especially if you
took away the tarrifs from imports.... HMMMMMM?)

ANSWER THE QUESTION????