On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:43:56 -0700, N8N wrote:

>
>
> C.H. wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 05:10:09 -0700, N8N wrote:
>>
>> > Your "opinion" happens to be wrong, when it comes to ABS.
>>
>> No, it is merely not as outdated as yours. And even if it was wrong a
>> clear thinking adult would just explain his views instead of refusing to
>> explain anything and calling the 'opponent' names like a thirdgrader.
>
> I have not called you a third grader yet, but you certainly seem to reason
> like one.

No, I merely don't share your opinion. And unlike you I dont claim that
'experience' gathered a decade ago with some Dodge Minivan on some
nameless test track under controlled conditions is the pinnacle of ABS
knowledge.

I suggest you stop your dumb namecalling and start behaving like an adult.


>> > It's real easy. When you brake on a split mu surface the high mu
>> > side will tend to make the vehicle rotate in that direction. Rather
>> > than force the driver to use steering input to correct, the ABS will
>> > dump pressure on the high mu side to the point that braking is
>> > effectively limited to little more than that offered by the low mu
>> > surface. Whereas without ABS, if the low mu side is ice or wet,
>> > smooth concrete there's really no problem just letting the low mu
>> > wheels lock and using lots of steering input to keep the vehicle
>> > pointed in the direction you want to go.
>>
>> And if you misjudge the traction on the high mu surface and one of your
>> wheels on the high mu side locks up you are going to lose control.
>
> The point is, you don't have to get anywhere near locking up the wheels
> on the high mu side to outbrake the ABS.

That depends on the difference in mu. Your testbed conditions 'one side
perfect traction, one side almost zero, are unrealistic to put it mildly.

>> The same happens if the low mu side suddenly gains traction
>
> Why? You'll just stop faster.

You would if you weren't using 'lots of steering input' to one side to
counteract the torque created by two wheels exerting a force on the car
and the other two not counteracting this force. In reality the car will
all of sudden follow the heavy steering input and you consequently will
either run off the road (if the left side was slick and you were steering
to the left to counteract that force or into oncoming traffic (if the
right side was slick.

>> or if the high mu side loses traction.
>
> Why? You'll just slide straight ahead.

Try it under real world conditions and you will find that this is not the
case.

>> Or if you run into a pothole or any other kind of small obstacle on the
>> low mu side.
>
> Why?

Because the sudden jolt will usually upset the car enough to induce a spin.

>> In all these cases the ABS car is going to continue going straight,
>> whereas our crash test dummy Nagel is going to be wrapped around a tree
>> or smashed right into the obstacle he was trying so hard to avoid.
>>
> Have you ever DONE any of these maneuvers in a real, live car?

I have experimented quite a bit with ABS, yes.

> Do you have any clue what the heck you're talking about?

Yes, and apparently I have more clue than you do.

>> Also modern ABS systems have improved vastly since you ('NDA probably
>> already expired') 'tested' ABS on a test track.
>
> Since I was working on prototype vehicles, my experience is actually
> only a couple years behind. Maybe 2-3 at most.

'Experience' from a test track with controlled conditions in a freaking
minivan. Great.

>> > Doesn't require a whole lot of skill, just reflexes fast enough to
>> > turn the steering wheel in the correct manner.
>>
>> It requires a lot of skill to even judge the high mu surface good
>> enough to be sure not to lose control.
>
> Absolute balls. A 16-year old can be taught to do it in a couple hours.

.... for your controlled conditions. And if the conditions change within a
few feet, which they freqiently do in real life, said 16 year old will
kill himself and others.

>> And if one of my mentioned conditions occurs (of course the test track
>> all your claimed experience centers on this is not going to be the
>> case, but real life is not like your smooth and predictable test track)
>> you are going to wreck.
>
> Balls.

No, just the simple truth, which of course you don't want to hear. After
all you like to see yourself as such a super expert and hearing that your
expertise is theoretical if that is not what you want.

Btw, you indeed have balls to try to pass off your 'test track experience'
with a minivan as experience.

>> Not even reflexes will save you if you suddenly get grip on both
>> sides with heavy steering input on the front axle being applied.
>
> Explain. Straightening out the steering wheel would seem to solve the
> problem quite nicely,

Only if you can do so in the fraction of a second you have until your
steering input has turned the car beyond the point of no return.

> which would seem to be a reflexive maneuver (since the first feedback
> the driver would receive would be the nose of the vehicle suddenly
> starting to turn in the direction of the steering input.)

In other words, you have never tried it? You should, it might actually
enlighten you.

>> You will simply run off the road very hard and very probably hit
>> something harder than the cones you are using on the test track.
>>
> Odd that that hasn't happened yet, then, isn't it?

You were lucky so far.

>> > I really am not sure how far my NDA goes. I imagine it's expired by
>> > now, but I don't really know.
>>
>> Guess what? I don't care.
>
> Obviously. It's clear you just want to "be right" and don't really care
> about educating yourself at all.

No, I just don't care about your NDA and even less about your attempt to
pass yourself off as an expert because you supposedly have signed one.

>> Your test track conditions don't apply to real life and as your test
>> apparently was many years back not even your experience back then does
>> carry any significance to judge today's ABS.
>>
> Balls.

No, just the plain naked and very ugly truth. Why, do you think the car
companies log millions of miles on real roads under real conditions and
let pros handle the cars out there? Because test track experience counts
for nothing in real life conditions. Test tracks make it possible to study
isolated factors but they are unable to sufficiently simulate real world
situations, which is why Chrysler like all the other manufacturers goes to
Canada or Scandinavia to test their prototypes under real conditions
before they are put into production.

>> If what you say is true (which I doubt, but let's say it is) you worked
>> on ABS systems many years ago under nonrealistic (i.e. predictable)
>> test track conditions. In other words: Your 'experience' is worth
>> nothing. And thanks, I have enough experience with ABS to have a very
>> good idea how it works and where its limitations are.
>>
> If you had a "very good idea" of how it worked you wouldn't be arguing
> with me, because I have enought experience to authoritatively state that
> I am right and you are wrong.

In other words you are stomping your foot and claiming you are right.
Unfortunately you are not and I sincerely hope that your arrogance and
lack of real world experience will not cost someone their life.

> I was also apparently right when I stated that even if I explained my
> statements in detail that you wouldn't accept the explanations.

I never accept wrong explanations.

[whine ... yammer ...]

>> In other words, you really only have experience with a few horrible
>> minivans under heavily unrealistic conditions. I didn't even suspect it
>> was _that_ bad.
>
> That's not what I said at all. I said "every American truck-based
> platform" meaning at that time I'd driven just about all of them. Read
> for comprehension, idiot.

My bad. But all the worse for you at the same time. Trucks do not behave
like normal cars, especially not concerning brake performance and brake
handling. And yes, I have ample experience with truck braking under
limited traction conditions, both with and without ABS.

In other words: You have no experience worth a damn (no real world
experience, no car experience, no real world car experience) but you
assume you are the expert in this field because you have signed a NDA.

You know, Nate, I always thought you were an ok guy, but what you really
turned out to be Id rather not say, because then you would accuse me of
namecalling...

Chris