Thread: lookin 4
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Old December 15th 04, 07:24 PM
Shaggie
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On 15 Dec 2004 05:20:36 GMT, EMOVE (Chris Perdue)
wrote:

>>From: Shaggie

>
>>And then I thought again and
>>realized why they pay me the big $$$ at work. It's because I don't
>>take an answer and accept it without proving it to be true for myself.

>
>that is an excellent quality...but so is being able to take a good clear
>explanation as to why something is not a great idea and save yourself alot of
>pain...<G>..
>
>>I would be a bit less of a pupil if I started
>>accepting all of your answers without questioning them. I don't
>>intend to start that now.

>
>please don't...not for me nor anyone else....i'm just some words on a
>screen...but don't discount opinions just because they are that either...
>
>
>>"Baja Fenders"...
>>
>>I had those and even with the torsion bar lift I had minor clearance
>>problems in the rear with the 31" tires. Front-end was fine with baja
>>fenders.

>
>now...you have come to the "otherside'...you can see the limitations of a kit
>that is designed for street legality....but where there is a need for
>improvements, improvements can be made....but you won't pull those out of a
>box...
>
>>
>>I was just saying the stock suspension on a VW Bug is a good
>>compromise for ride quality and that as soon as you turn torsion bars
>>and put in air shocks you lose some of that.

>
>i agree....but the question is, is what you gain worth the loss?


Not if you can gain it another way without losing.

>
>>Adding a body lift and
>>larger tires does give you the extra ground clearance without
>>sacrificing much of the ride quality VW engineered into the car.

>
>while i somewhat agree here, you have to look at intended use...the bodylift
>instead of the suspension adjustment will net you the same thing....more
>clearance for bigger tires....but they do it differently....with the bodylift
>you get the clearance, but with factory compression rates...meaning softer
>suspension...good for street....with the re-indexing of torsion bars you get
>the clearance and it takes *more* force to push those pretty new big
>mudgrippers into your pretty new fiberglass fenders....good trade in my book...


To a point, sure, but the ride gets pretty "bouncy" when you reindex
the torsion bars enough to give you the tire/fender clearance you need
and when you pump up the air shocks enough to get rid of some of the
bounce you wind up with a very stiff ride. You have to trade off
between the bounch and the stiffness when you do the
reindexing/air-shock thing.

>
>> but still
>>the body lift with taller tires is the easiest way I now to give extra
>>under-body clearance without sacrificing much ride quality.

>
>as i said it is all about what you want to do....if you want ride quaility
>there are much better systems out there than event he factory suspension...if
>you want offroad there too are better ways out there....there are always many
>different ways to go, and they all get used....just gotta decide which way
>works best in your situation...


Of course there's better stuff out there. I'm (as always) talking
about how to do this without having to spend a ridiculous amount of
money on it.

>
>
>>You have to compromise either way. Here's my confession. I never
>>looked deep into a body lift on a VW Bug because I had pretty
>>impressive ground clearance with mine just using the redneck tricks.
>>I did look into it on a Jeep and the concepts are similar.

>
>a lifted vw has very impressive pan clearance.....but as stated, and as with
>the jeeps more prominant differentials, larger tires are the only true way of
>getting ground clearance......(the concept is similar for the jeep and beetle,
>but the similarities pretty much end there...)
>
>>Body lift
>>= remove body from frame, put spacers in-between, compensate for parts
>>that span between body and frame. All you need pretty much are the
>>spacers between body and frame and a couple of very cheap extension

>
>good concept...<G>.


Sure it is, and that's the way it works.

>
>> Now with a suspension lift you have to replace the springs and
>>mounts and all that crap. At least 3X the expense and it buys
>>you.... more clearance for bigger tires (but not more than the body
>>lift)

>
>i agree with some of this...but i have yet to see an 8-12 inch bodylift, yet i
>see them for suspension lifts reguarly....the single biggest thing you gain
>with a suspension lift over a body lift is suspension travel....but if that is
>not of use to you then is a moot point...


Oh, sure. I won't argue with you about any of that.

>
>> Body
>>lift is $150 or so and keeps all stock springs and stuff. Body lift
>>is the cheap/easy way to go

>
>cheapest isn't always best....looking at your argument here i see a major
>flaw...you are basing the entire arguement on the fact that you can modify your
>vehicle cheaply and keep the stock "springs and such"....that is great for
>economic reasons, but does not make sense for logical reasons...if the stock
>suspension was adequate then why are you attempting to modify it anyway?


I'm aware cheapest isn't always best. Sounds silly to hear someone
even offer that up as "advice." Major flaw in my argument? We're
arguing? The stock suspension was adequate and still is. I'm not
trying to modify it. I'm just trying to get more ground clearance.
Body lift along with oversized tires will do exactly that. No flaw in
that "logic." That's just the way it is.

>
>>And once I got the length on the limiter chains just right I stopped
>>pinching the boots but didn't get enough droop to justify the
>>suspension mods to begin with.

>
>i thought you wanted more clearance for larger tires?....has nothing to do with
>the "droop" problems you encountered...
>
>>he only reason the axle boots were dropping so low
>>is the re-indexed torsion bars were forcing them down violently. For
>>extra ground clearance. It was stressing the rear suspension.

>
>i agree with your diagnosis, but not with your last statement...the suspension
>was not stressed...


Sure it was. When I re-indexed the torsion bars, it was just like
winding a spring up tighter so it uncoiled harder and forced the
axles/wheels/tires down further to give more lift and more tire/fender
clearance. When I added the limiting chains, it made it so that the
axles/wheels/tires would not be able to go down as far, limiting the
amount of lift I was getting and the tire/fender clearance.

>
>>Would
>>have been much easier to have put on a body lift and run bigger tires
>>on the rear (because I could with that body lift) to give the extra
>>clearance...

>
>easier...hmm....maybe, but then with your cushy stockish suspension and stock
>suspension travel you could have had alot of fun bottoming out reguarly whereas
>suspension lifts help in this department...


That depends on driving style to a large degree and I was never one to
tear through the trails. Maybe a mud puddle or two, but for the most
part my offroading in the baja and the jeep was at very slow speeds.

>
>>I'm only speaking from experience, and in my experience
>>I've never run with a body lift on a VW

>
>and i have never run with a bodylift on any 4x4 truck/jeep....and for good
>reason....<G>
>
>>Interesting discussion.
>>To me, at least.
>>

>
>i agree...and this is what this board is for...
>
>>I haven't performed both procedures, but I've read about them both and
>>after reading about both proceudres I chose the body lift and it was
>>pretty damn simple. Just like the stuff I read said it would be...

>
>i get the feeling the bodylift was chosen because it was cheaper and
>easier...correct me if i am wrong...


You are exactly right. Cost less, easier to perform, and got me the
lift I wanted.

>
>>and much simpler than the suspension lifts I'd read.
>>

>
>maybe it is all perception, but i have never thought that totally removeing and
>rebuilding the suspension on any vehicle was a major undertaking...(i did
>however have a cussing fit with a pneumatic suspension system on a subaru XT
>once..<G>)


It might not be a major undertaking, but it's much more involved than
putting a body lift on.

>
>>Big difference between bug and Jeep but it took about 4 hours to do
>>the Jeep body lift and neither I nor my friend David had ever done
>>that before. I have trouble believing a body lift on a bug would take
>>longer or even that long...given the right tools.
>>

>
>i see your thinking...but for someone that has never removed the body from the
>pan of a bug, it would indeed take more time than that 4 hours for the
>jeep...with a jeep/truck/any vehicle mounted separately to a frame, it is much
>simpler to install a bodylift.........


I can't argue with that since like you said I've never removed the
body from the pan on a bug before.

>
>>*cough* Been there, used those fenders with 31" tires and grossly
>>re-indexed torsion bars and still had minor clearance problems.
>>*cough*
>>

>
>*cough* imagine how much fender to tire problems you would have had, had you
>not given yourself more suspension travel by re-indexing those torsion
>bars...the stock travel and softer rate would have been doom for your
>choppergun fenders<G>*cough*


I think that if I'd had a body lift and air shocks I'd have been
better off. Reindexing the torsion bars does cause a "spring" to
creep into the ride and that springiness is what causes the tires to
bounce up into the fenderwells. I'd have had the same fender/tire
clearance with the body lift, but not extra springiness, and air
shocks to help tame the tires if they tried to smash the precious
chopper-gun fenders after hitting a bump.

>
>i, for the record, am not condemning a body lift for any vehicle....but there
>are advantages and disadvantages...to me the main advantage would seem to be
>price, and not much more....


I think that's also the main advantage and for my offroad driving
style I don't see any major disadvantages, and didn't experience any
disadvantages when I ran with a body lift on the jeep. If I had all
the time and $ I wanted to "do it right" I'd do a combination of
suspension and body lift. I don't have all I want of either of those
things, though, so for now I'll just have to "shag" it. :-)


---

"Let us not look back in anger, nor forward in fear, but around in awareness."
-James Thurber
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