BMW series 5 disables Dynamic Stability Control and ABS
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:59:42 +0100 (W. Europe Standard Time)
From: Stefan Lesser [redacted for spam control] Subject: BMW series 5 disables Dynamic Stability Control and ABS (originally posted in comp.risks) After two accidents involving police cars of Berlin, Germany, at first the drivers were blamed and appointed to a security training. But taking into consideration the driver's nearly identical reports, which claimed that the cars on-board drive dynamic control systems had failed, BMW took on and inspected the case. The result was: Yes, after an emergency brake exceeding a certain preset pressure on the pedal, all stability systems are disabled and can only be re-enabled by switching off the ignition for five seconds... Originating report (German only): http://www.daserste.de/plusminus/beitrag.asp?iid=254 Follow-Ups (German ditto): http://www.autobild.de/aktuell/neuhe...rtikel_id=7348 http://www.autoservicepraxis.de/sixc...32454&_zielcb= Stefan Lesser, Muenchen, Burda Digital Systems GmbH, Am Kestendamm 2, 77652 Offenburg, Germany +49 89 9250-3433 http://www.burdadigital.de |
> wrote in message ... > Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:59:42 +0100 (W. Europe Standard Time) > From: Stefan Lesser [redacted for spam control] > Subject: BMW series 5 disables Dynamic Stability Control and ABS > (originally posted in comp.risks) > > After two accidents involving police cars of Berlin, Germany, at first the > drivers were blamed and appointed to a security training. But taking into > consideration the driver's nearly identical reports, which claimed that the > cars on-board drive dynamic control systems had failed, BMW took on and > inspected the case. The result was: Yes, after an emergency brake exceeding > a certain preset pressure on the pedal, all stability systems are disabled > and can only be re-enabled by switching off the ignition for five > seconds... > Let me see if I understand, if the driver makes an emergency stop - or similar type of manuver - the vehicle control systems can disable themselves without warning the driver this has happened, then in a subesquent manuver where the driver might be relying on the features, he might find them not available? That seems like a problem that should require immediate response from BMW. As much as I think the vehicle control systems should always work, if they are turned off for any reason, including but not limited to driver selection, the driver should be informed that the features are not currently available. All this means is that a light should turn on if the vehicle control systems - ABS and Traction Control - have either been switched off by the driver, or have gone off for some reason that only the car knows about. > Originating report (German only): > http://www.daserste.de/plusminus/beitrag.asp?iid=254 > > Follow-Ups (German ditto): > http://www.autobild.de/aktuell/neuhe...rtikel_id=7348 > http://www.autoservicepraxis.de/sixc...32454&_zielcb= > > Stefan Lesser, Muenchen, Burda Digital Systems GmbH, Am Kestendamm 2, > 77652 Offenburg, Germany +49 89 9250-3433 http://www.burdadigital.de |
"Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message ... | | > wrote in message ... | > Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:59:42 +0100 (W. Europe Standard Time) | > From: Stefan Lesser [redacted for spam control] | > Subject: BMW series 5 disables Dynamic Stability Control and ABS | > (originally posted in comp.risks) | > | > After two accidents involving police cars of Berlin, Germany, at first the | > drivers were blamed and appointed to a security training. But taking into | > consideration the driver's nearly identical reports, which claimed that | the | > cars on-board drive dynamic control systems had failed, BMW took on and | > inspected the case. The result was: Yes, after an emergency brake | exceeding | > a certain preset pressure on the pedal, all stability systems are disabled | > and can only be re-enabled by switching off the ignition for five | > seconds... | > | | | Let me see if I understand, if the driver makes an emergency stop - or | similar type of manuver - the vehicle control systems can disable themselves | without warning the driver this has happened, then in a subesquent manuver | where the driver might be relying on the features, he might find them not | available? That seems like a problem that should require immediate response | from BMW. | | As much as I think the vehicle control systems should always work, if they | are turned off for any reason, including but not limited to driver | selection, the driver should be informed that the features are not currently | available. All this means is that a light should turn on if the vehicle | control systems - ABS and Traction Control - have either been switched off | by the driver, or have gone off for some reason that only the car knows | about. | Let me see if I understand the basics of what is happening here. The stability control systems are really doing virtually nothing to improve safety...only allowing the driver to push the car to it's new edge, which they are doing. No wonder the HLDI's FAQ page on simple ABS system says that insurance loss data shows NO REDUCTION in accidents (comparing insurance loss statistics of cars with ABS with cars without ABS). Apparently what so many have said is true!!! These systems just allow drivers to push the envelope further and does nothing to actually improve safety "per-se". |
"James C. Reeves" > wrote in message ... > > "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message > ... > | > | > wrote in message ... > | > Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:59:42 +0100 (W. Europe Standard Time) > | > From: Stefan Lesser [redacted for spam control] > | > Subject: BMW series 5 disables Dynamic Stability Control and ABS > | > (originally posted in comp.risks) > | > > | > After two accidents involving police cars of Berlin, Germany, at first the > | > drivers were blamed and appointed to a security training. But taking into > | > consideration the driver's nearly identical reports, which claimed that > | the > | > cars on-board drive dynamic control systems had failed, BMW took on and > | > inspected the case. The result was: Yes, after an emergency brake > | exceeding > | > a certain preset pressure on the pedal, all stability systems are disabled > | > and can only be re-enabled by switching off the ignition for five > | > seconds... > | > > | > | > | Let me see if I understand, if the driver makes an emergency stop - or > | similar type of manuver - the vehicle control systems can disable themselves > | without warning the driver this has happened, then in a subesquent manuver > | where the driver might be relying on the features, he might find them not > | available? That seems like a problem that should require immediate response > | from BMW. > | > | As much as I think the vehicle control systems should always work, if they > | are turned off for any reason, including but not limited to driver > | selection, the driver should be informed that the features are not currently > | available. All this means is that a light should turn on if the vehicle > | control systems - ABS and Traction Control - have either been switched off > | by the driver, or have gone off for some reason that only the car knows > | about. > | > > Let me see if I understand the basics of what is happening here. The stability > control systems are really doing virtually nothing to improve safety...only > allowing the driver to push the car to it's new edge, which they are doing. No > wonder the HLDI's FAQ page on simple ABS system says that insurance loss data > shows NO REDUCTION in accidents (comparing insurance loss statistics of cars > with ABS with cars without ABS). Apparently what so many have said is true!!! > These systems just allow drivers to push the envelope further and does nothing > to actually improve safety "per-se". > > Keep in mind the drivers in the report were police, so they are more likely to approach "the edge", and remain there more often and longer than the rest of us mortals. And, by my reading, the problem the police had wasn't that the systems let them down, the problem is that the systems shut off, so the police were thinking a behavior they had trained for would occur, but the fact is it didn't occur at all. In short, the police drivers expected something to happen that did not happen, and the result was apparently a wreck. The report made no mention that I can recall of civilian drivers having these issues. This doesn't mean civililan drivers haven't had them, but it is possible that the trouble is related to the police spec that the cars are built to. But, it seems to me that the systems worked fine, then shut off for some unknown reason, and it is this shutting down without any indication that is what needs to be fixed. The system should not shut down unless the driver turns it off, and if it does shut down with or without driver input, the driver should be told that the system is inactive. |
In article >, Jeff Strickland says...
[snip] >The report made no mention that I can recall of civilian drivers having >these issues. This doesn't mean civililan drivers haven't had them, but it >is possible that the trouble is related to the police spec that the cars are >built to. [snip] One civilian driver did state he experienced the problem, but it was not verified by a BMW mechanic: 'Few days ago with Krefeld. Volker A. is with its BWM 525 Touring, type E 39, on the way. After a vollbremsung ESP and DSC switch off. The flares do not go out. Volker A. tells: "I was forced to make a vollbremsung with this vehicle, and there I had to brake up to the stop. And all warning lamps are sudden in the system on and remain also on, those do not go out thus. Now I looked up times degrees in the manual, and there there is simply a reference that the brake is, but the systems evenly no more, and one from the BMW service examined to have that normally still functioned."' The problem was fixed on the police cars with a software update, but no recall is planned. |
"Rick DeBay" > wrote in message ... > The system expects braking forces of only 150 to 200 pounds to be used during > braking. If it senses 265 pounds, it shuts down. The problem is that up to 330 > pounds can be applied during an emergency stop (from the translation). I think something else is also at play here. Applying 260 or 330 pounds on the brake pedal is a pretty high threshold (I don't care if you do sled 800 lb. in the weight room). The angle of the leg and position of the driver body make that threshold pretty hard to reach. It is more likely that the car was already in some difficulty and the addition of forward body momentum and leg braking, applied the high amount of pressure to the pedal (the proverbial "standing on the brake" scenario). And it may be that once the car is already in that amount of trouble it is proper for the stability systems to be off, as they may not be mapped to work correctly or securely under those extreme conditions. Just a guess, but I don't think it is as simple as pushing the pedal to the tune of 260 lb. of pressure or that the 260 lb. is an arbitrary threshold. If memory serves me well, (and at my advanced age it sometimes doesn't :^) all stability systems on all current cars have a shut off point. Some work from pitch and yaw, others from rotation, still others from simple G force, and maybe some combination of each or all. I am certain that BMW's systems shut off from more than just this one dynamic (brake pedal pressure). This whole thing about the police though, reminds me of when ABS first hit the market. Police all over the country were getting into accidents because they had been trained to pump brakes...and of course pumping ABS in those days was tantamount to asking for lose of vehicle control. |
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