Why Would ABS Problem Require Replacing Control Arms?
I have an old 1995 Honda Civic and the ABS light started coming on. I
took it to a mechanic who diagnosed it as a faulty left rear wheel sensor. OK, fine, replace the sensor; sounds simple enough. Then I get another call from my mechanic some time later: He rattled off some gobbledygook that "the sensor runs down where the rear control arms are" and that the control arms had become frozen by rust or corrosion over the years, would not come off, and needed to be replaced too. And something about bushings needing replacement too. I have absolutely no idea what he's talking about, so I could use a sanity check. Does any of this make any sense at all? Why would replacing an ABS rear wheel sensor have anything to do with control arms, bushings, etc.? -- Steven D. Litvintchouk Email: Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. |
Why Would ABS Problem Require Replacing Control Arms?
Steven L. wrote:
> I have an old 1995 Honda Civic and the ABS light started coming on. I > took it to a mechanic who diagnosed it as a faulty left rear wheel > sensor. OK, fine, replace the sensor; sounds simple enough. > > Then I get another call from my mechanic some time later: He rattled > off some gobbledygook that "the sensor runs down where the rear > control arms are" and that the control arms had become frozen by rust > or corrosion over the years, would not come off, and needed to be > replaced too. And something about bushings needing replacement too. > > I have absolutely no idea what he's talking about, so I could use a > sanity check. Does any of this make any sense at all? Why would > replacing an ABS rear wheel sensor have anything to do with control > arms, bushings, etc.? It is coincidental. While inspecting the ABS he has been up close and personal with other components which have aged and suggests you replace them before disaster strikes. Huw |
Why Would ABS Problem Require Replacing Control Arms?
In order to get to and replace the sensor the hub has to be separated from
the control arm. If it is all rusted together they will be damaged in removing and will have to replace. Expect these problems in 12 year old cars. Steel rusts and has to be replaced.. "Steven L." > wrote in message k.net... >I have an old 1995 Honda Civic and the ABS light started coming on. I took >it to a mechanic who diagnosed it as a faulty left rear wheel sensor. OK, >fine, replace the sensor; sounds simple enough. > > Then I get another call from my mechanic some time later: He rattled off > some gobbledygook that "the sensor runs down where the rear control arms > are" and that the control arms had become frozen by rust or corrosion over > the years, would not come off, and needed to be replaced too. And > something about bushings needing replacement too. > > I have absolutely no idea what he's talking about, so I could use a sanity > check. Does any of this make any sense at all? Why would replacing an > ABS rear wheel sensor have anything to do with control arms, bushings, > etc.? > > > -- > Steven D. Litvintchouk > Email: > Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. |
Why Would ABS Problem Require Replacing Control Arms?
"Steven L." > wrote
>I have an old 1995 Honda Civic and the ABS light started >coming on. I took it to a mechanic who diagnosed it as a >faulty left rear wheel sensor. OK, fine, replace the >sensor; sounds simple enough. > > Then I get another call from my mechanic some time later: > He rattled off some gobbledygook that "the sensor runs > down where the rear control arms are" There are indeed lines, going to each rear wheel's ABS sensor, that run along the rear control arms. Small bolts (6 mm nominal diameter) and brackets attach the lines to the control arm. This appears on the bottom drawing on the first page at http://media.honda.co.uk/car/owner/m...pdf/19-144.pdf . The control arm is the member that extends from inboard at the wheel hub to outboard, with the coil spring attaching in between. I would be surprised if the mechanic had any serious problems with those small bolts connecting sensor lines to the control arm. Worst case, maybe they have to be drilled out IF they need replacement. If he's only doing the sensor, I am doubtful the lines have to be unbolted at all. The control arm bolts with bushings around them are the much larger ones (10 mm diameter) that take an enormous load and so tend to freeze to the inner sleeves of the bushings. > and that the control arms had become frozen by rust or He means the control arm bolts are likely frozen to their respective bushings, meaning they typically have to be cut out or torched out. This is very common not only in Hondas, but many other makes of cars. Frozen control arm bolts have received a lot of attention at this newsgroup over the years, mostly described in four-letter words. > corrosion over the years, would not come off, and needed > to be replaced too. And something about bushings needing > replacement too. The bushings of a Honda over 10 years/100k miles very likely could stand replacement. Doing so will likely improve handling. OTOH, if you're not having tire wear problems, and do not have a lot of money, and are fine with the way the car currently handles, you can put this off, IMO. To have a shop do all the suspension bushings would probably run around $700 to $1000. The bolts being seized to the bushing sleeves is also not per design, of course. They're supposed to rotate somewhat within the bushings. > I have absolutely no idea what he's talking about, so I > could use a sanity check. Does any of this make any sense > at all? Why would replacing an ABS rear wheel sensor have > anything to do with control arms, bushings, etc.? I suspect he's saying that, while diagnosing the wheel sensor problem, he noticed the control arm bushings looked very worn and also suspects frozen control arm bolts. If he did not mention this, I think he would be remiss. He may be trying to make more money off you, but it's more than likely a legitimate recommendation. Ask him to clarify whether he feels he has to remove the control arms to replace the wheel sensor. My take so far from the drawing and working extensively on my (non-ABS) Civic's rear control arms is that this should not be necessary. |
Why Would ABS Problem Require Replacing Control Arms?
"Steven L." wrote:
> > I have an old 1995 Honda Civic and the ABS light started coming on. I > took it to a mechanic who diagnosed it as a faulty left rear wheel > sensor. OK, fine, replace the sensor; sounds simple enough. > > Then I get another call from my mechanic some time later: He rattled > off some gobbledygook that "the sensor runs down where the rear control > arms are" and that the control arms had become frozen by rust or > corrosion over the years, would not come off, and needed to be replaced > too. And something about bushings needing replacement too. > > I have absolutely no idea what he's talking about, so I could use a > sanity check. Does any of this make any sense at all? Why would > replacing an ABS rear wheel sensor have anything to do with control > arms, bushings, etc.? > > -- > Steven D. Litvintchouk > Email: > Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. --------------------------------------------------- The ABS sensor is cylindrical, and almost exactly the same size as the hole in the control arm, and when it gets rusty in there, there ain't now way of getting the sensor out without destroying the sensor. HOWEVER, there's no reason to destroy the arm. The newer sensors are a bit smaller (and tapered) so they won't rust in place. I went through this with our '95 Odyssey. 'Curly' |
Why Would ABS Problem Require Replacing Control Arms?
Elle wrote:
> "Steven L." > wrote >> I have an old 1995 Honda Civic and the ABS light started >> coming on. I took it to a mechanic who diagnosed it as a >> faulty left rear wheel sensor. OK, fine, replace the >> sensor; sounds simple enough. >> >> Then I get another call from my mechanic some time later: >> He rattled off some gobbledygook that "the sensor runs >> down where the rear control arms are" > > There are indeed lines, going to each rear wheel's ABS > sensor, that run along the rear control arms. Small bolts (6 > mm nominal diameter) and brackets attach the lines to the > control arm. This appears on the bottom drawing on the first > page at > http://media.honda.co.uk/car/owner/m...pdf/19-144.pdf . > > The control arm is the member that extends from inboard at > the wheel hub to outboard, with the coil spring attaching > in between. > > I would be surprised if the mechanic had any serious > problems with those small bolts connecting sensor lines to > the control arm. Worst case, maybe they have to be drilled > out IF they need replacement. If he's only doing the sensor, > I am doubtful the lines have to be unbolted at all. > > The control arm bolts with bushings around them are the much > larger ones (10 mm diameter) that take an enormous load and > so tend to freeze to the inner sleeves of the bushings. > >> and that the control arms had become frozen by rust or > > He means the control arm bolts are likely frozen to their > respective bushings, meaning they typically have to be cut > out or torched out. This is very common not only in Hondas, > but many other makes of cars. Frozen control arm bolts have > received a lot of attention at this newsgroup over the > years, mostly described in four-letter words. > >> corrosion over the years, would not come off, and needed >> to be replaced too. And something about bushings needing >> replacement too. > > The bushings of a Honda over 10 years/100k miles very likely > could stand replacement. Doing so will likely improve > handling. OTOH, if you're not having tire wear problems, and > do not have a lot of money, and are fine with the way the > car currently handles, you can put this off, IMO. To have a > shop do all the suspension bushings would probably run > around $700 to $1000. > > The bolts being seized to the bushing sleeves is also not > per design, of course. They're supposed to rotate somewhat > within the bushings. > >> I have absolutely no idea what he's talking about, so I >> could use a sanity check. Does any of this make any sense >> at all? Why would replacing an ABS rear wheel sensor have >> anything to do with control arms, bushings, etc.? > > I suspect he's saying that, while diagnosing the wheel > sensor problem, he noticed the control arm bushings looked > very worn and also suspects frozen control arm bolts. If he > did not mention this, I think he would be remiss. He may be > trying to make more money off you, but it's more than likely > a legitimate recommendation. > > Ask him to clarify whether he feels he has to remove the > control arms to replace the wheel sensor. My take so far > from the drawing and working extensively on my (non-ABS) > Civic's rear control arms is that this should not be > necessary. Now that I was armed (no pun intended) with your description, I was able to get more clarification. The mechanic said the control arms don't have to be replaced; it's the bolts and bushings that have gotten worn and rusted frozen in place. And he's only going to service those bolts and bushings on the control arm for the wheel sensor that needs replacement; not any other control arms. Finally, he assured me that the rest of the suspension is in good shape. So it does sound like he knows what he's talking about. But based on what you said, I will ask him if at some future point it might be worthwhile to inspect and service the bushings on the other control arms too. Thank you, and thanks also to everyone else who responded! -- Steven D. Litvintchouk Email: Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. |
Why Would ABS Problem Require Replacing Control Arms?
"Steven L." > wrote
> Elle wrote: >> The bolts being seized to the bushing sleeves is also not >> per design, of course. They're supposed to rotate >> somewhat within the bushings. [Obvious post-o: The bushings rotate somewhat around the bolts, which are fixed to the car chassis.] > Now that I was armed (no pun intended) with your > description, I was able to get more clarification. The > mechanic said the control arms don't have to be replaced; > it's the bolts and bushings that have gotten worn and > rusted frozen in place. And he's only going to service > those bolts and bushings on the control arm for the wheel > sensor that needs replacement; not any other control arms. > Finally, he assured me that the rest of the suspension is > in good shape. > > So it does sound like he knows what he's talking about. He sounds honest, too. If you ever find out whether the arms actually have to come off to replace the sensor (I can't quite tell from what you quote him saying), I'd be interested to know. Seems those sensors are not an uncommon failure item. If the control arms have to come off, wow, that's potentially one expensive fix. FWIW, and not to drag this out, but I suggest trying to ensure the mechanic uses OEM ( = genuine Honda) bushings. Non-OEM rubber parts on Hondas have a reputation for a much shorter life. They might be fine, but I personally don't risk it anymore. I pay the extra money up front for the OEM parts, and I'm pretty frugal. > But based on what you said, I will ask him if at some > future point it might be worthwhile to inspect and service > the bushings on the other control arms too. You're right on target, AFAIC. Good luck. |
Why Would ABS Problem Require Replacing Control Arms?
Elle wrote:
> "Steven L." > wrote > >>Elle wrote: >> >>>The bolts being seized to the bushing sleeves is also not >>>per design, of course. They're supposed to rotate >>>somewhat within the bushings. > > > [Obvious post-o: The bushings rotate somewhat around the > bolts, which are fixed to the car chassis.] > Well, if they are rubber, the inner sleeves should not be rotating on the bolts - the twisting of the bushing as the suspension works is all done through the compliance of the rubber. This is fairly common for most vehicles. So, it's not a matter of "if" the stuff will seize up but "when" if you live in the right climate... nate -- replace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel |
Why Would ABS Problem Require Replacing Control Arms?
"Nate Nagel" > wrote
> Elle wrote: >> [Obvious post-o: The bushings rotate somewhat around the >> bolts, which are fixed to the car chassis.] >> > > Well, if they are rubber, the inner sleeves Not sure what you are trying to say, but the bushing inner sleeves are not rubber. They are very hard steel. The sleeves (inner and outer) are like a shell that hold the rubber part. See photos under "Bushing Removal" at http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id15.html . > should not be rotating on the bolts - No, you're messed up. The control arm is supposed to rotate by design (as the car goes over bumps etc.) to some extent about the long axes of its bolts, these axes being concentric with those of the bolts' respective bushings. No rotation, and the passengers are in for one harsh ride. > the twisting of the bushing as the suspension works is all > done through the compliance of the rubber. If properly installed, the bushing rubber should not normally twist. The rubber should normally be somewhat compressed, because of the weight of the car and the way the suspension system works. > This is fairly common for most vehicles. So, it's not a > matter of "if" the stuff will seize up but "when" if you > live in the right climate... Fact: Control arm bolt metal typically 'cold welds' or rusts or similar to control arm bushing sleeve metal. |
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:40 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
AutoBanter.com