2-stroke diesel is the (near) future?
 

Proposal for a future (helicopter) engine...

2-stroke diesel
2500cc two cylinder 45 degree V (120-150hp)
air cooled (cowlings)
common rail direct injection (high pressure)
supercharged (Whipple fixed displacement max. 25 psi twin-screw)
piston ported (or with LIM-type intake valve)

Links...

www.limtechnology.com
www.zoche.de

Has anybody ever tought of opening the intake valve (one ceneterd
valve) with (the high) diesel injection pressure?

Perhaps the valve and injector could be integrated. As the pressure is
released (at the exact right time) to the valve, it opens and lets the
supercharged compressed air rush in. As the piston rises past the
exhaust ports, the diesel fuel is injected and as the pressure quickly
drops (and simultaneously the cylinder pressure rises) the valve
closes tightly.

Could this be feasible? Unfortunately, I am no engineer. Just a
tought.

In a two-cycle engine the integrated pump nozzles and intake valves
could be operated directly from crankshaft with push rods and rocker
arms. This would still eliminate the camshaft and the high pressure
injection pump.

This type of engine could prove to reliable and economical...

- diesel fuel acts as a lubricant as well (reliability)
- low parts count (reliability, low and easy maintenance, light)
- sturdy diesel parts (reliability, low maintenance)
- economical on fuel(low consumption, the use of bio-fuels, possibly a
bi-fuel)

Is this the future engine for aviation (rotor aeroplanes and
helicopters), automotive, machines, marine etc?

Cars (trains and boats as well) should be full two-mode hybrids with a
mecanical planetary drivetrain or just the combination of a diesel
generator, batteries and electric engines (to make things simple and
economical).

You could (and should) recharge the batteries from AC mains during the
night, so they are at full charge when you go off to work. They are
charged with the diesel generator and as you apply the brakes.

Detroit Diesel has been producing 2-stroke diesels of this sort for 50
years. They recently changed to conventional 4 stroke engines. Guess why?

"Max Kallio" > wrote in message
om...
> Proposal for a future (helicopter) engine...
>
> 2-stroke diesel
> 2500cc two cylinder 45 degree V (120-150hp)
> air cooled (cowlings)
> common rail direct injection (high pressure)
> supercharged (Whipple fixed displacement max. 25 psi twin-screw)
> piston ported (or with LIM-type intake valve)
>
> Links...
>
> www.limtechnology.com
> www.zoche.de
>
> Has anybody ever tought of opening the intake valve (one ceneterd
> valve) with (the high) diesel injection pressure?
>
> Perhaps the valve and injector could be integrated. As the pressure is
> released (at the exact right time) to the valve, it opens and lets the
> supercharged compressed air rush in. As the piston rises past the
> exhaust ports, the diesel fuel is injected and as the pressure quickly
> drops (and simultaneously the cylinder pressure rises) the valve
> closes tightly.
>
> Could this be feasible? Unfortunately, I am no engineer. Just a
> tought.
>
> In a two-cycle engine the integrated pump nozzles and intake valves
> could be operated directly from crankshaft with push rods and rocker
> arms. This would still eliminate the camshaft and the high pressure
> injection pump.
>
> This type of engine could prove to reliable and economical...
>
> - diesel fuel acts as a lubricant as well (reliability)
> - low parts count (reliability, low and easy maintenance, light)
> - sturdy diesel parts (reliability, low maintenance)
> - economical on fuel(low consumption, the use of bio-fuels, possibly a
> bi-fuel)
>
> Is this the future engine for aviation (rotor aeroplanes and
> helicopters), automotive, machines, marine etc?
>
> Cars (trains and boats as well) should be full two-mode hybrids with a
> mecanical planetary drivetrain or just the combination of a diesel
> generator, batteries and electric engines (to make things simple and
> economical).
>
> You could (and should) recharge the batteries from AC mains during the
> night, so they are at full charge when you go off to work. They are
> charged with the diesel generator and as you apply the brakes.

Considering that the famous mfg. of 2-stroke Diesel locomotives has now
gone to 4-stroke because of better economy and lower emissions, this
seems to me like a step backward.

Max Kallio wrote:
> Proposal for a future (helicopter) engine...
>
> 2-stroke diesel
> 2500cc two cylinder 45 degree V (120-150hp)
> air cooled (cowlings)
> common rail direct injection (high pressure)
> supercharged (Whipple fixed displacement max. 25 psi twin-screw)
> piston ported (or with LIM-type intake valve)
>
> Links...
>
> www.limtechnology.com
> www.zoche.de
>
> Has anybody ever tought of opening the intake valve (one ceneterd
> valve) with (the high) diesel injection pressure?
>
> Perhaps the valve and injector could be integrated. As the pressure is
> released (at the exact right time) to the valve, it opens and lets the
> supercharged compressed air rush in. As the piston rises past the
> exhaust ports, the diesel fuel is injected and as the pressure quickly
> drops (and simultaneously the cylinder pressure rises) the valve
> closes tightly.
>
> Could this be feasible? Unfortunately, I am no engineer. Just a
> tought.
>
> In a two-cycle engine the integrated pump nozzles and intake valves
> could be operated directly from crankshaft with push rods and rocker
> arms. This would still eliminate the camshaft and the high pressure
> injection pump.
>
> This type of engine could prove to reliable and economical...
>
> - diesel fuel acts as a lubricant as well (reliability)
> - low parts count (reliability, low and easy maintenance, light)
> - sturdy diesel parts (reliability, low maintenance)
> - economical on fuel(low consumption, the use of bio-fuels, possibly a
> bi-fuel)
>
> Is this the future engine for aviation (rotor aeroplanes and
> helicopters), automotive, machines, marine etc?
>
> Cars (trains and boats as well) should be full two-mode hybrids with a
> mecanical planetary drivetrain or just the combination of a diesel
> generator, batteries and electric engines (to make things simple and
> economical).
>
> You could (and should) recharge the batteries from AC mains during the
> night, so they are at full charge when you go off to work. They are
> charged with the diesel generator and as you apply the brakes.

Diesel aircraft engines for certified and experiimental aircraft are here
now.

http://www.centurion-engines.com/c17/c17_start.htm

There are others also.

That's not a new design.

Dan wrote:
> Diesel aircraft engines for certified and experiimental aircraft are here
> now.
>
> http://www.centurion-engines.com/c17/c17_start.htm
>
> There are others also.
>
>

To prevent going to much OT in rec.auto.tech, if you wish to discuss
engines other than car engines, there is a Yahoo group called heat
engines, for discussion of any heat engine, IC, steam, or other.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/heatengines/

You can access it as a web discussion group, or you can receive and post
via email.

We'd be happy to see more folks join, and liven up the discussions.

Wandering aimlessly about the Web, I heard Max Kallio say:

> Proposal for a future (helicopter) engine...
>
> 2-stroke diesel
> 2500cc two cylinder 45 degree V (120-150hp)
> air cooled (cowlings)
> common rail direct injection (high pressure)
> supercharged (Whipple fixed displacement max. 25 psi twin-screw)
> piston ported (or with LIM-type intake valve)
>
> Links...
>
> www.limtechnology.com
> www.zoche.de
>
-- SNIP --

I've been watching Zoche for 6-7 years, and as far as I know, they still
haven't released anything to the market that you can buy. The material
on their web site hasn't been updated in three or four years. Their
aerodiesel designs look good -- excellent power/weight, fuel economy
significantly better than gasoline, use of more widely available jet
fuel or kerosene, projected high reliability and life due to much lower
component count than 4-stroke engines, compressed air starter eliminates
need for large, heavy cranking battery, etc., etc.

Unfortunately, Michael Zoche got wrapped around an axle in typical
German mindset by trying to get JAR-E and FAR-33 certification before
marketing the engines. That's kept them entangled in bureaucratic red
tape for years, particularly in Germany. (The bureaucracy in Germany is
phenomenal. It's little wonder Germans have been relatively
non-innovative in the world market, compared to Japan and the U.S.) It
would have been better to get some of their smaller, lighter engines
into the hands of homebuilders and experimenters on a non-certified,
use-at-your-own-risk basis to gain operational experience, while they
continued to work on JAR and FAA certification. After all, look at the
junk ultralight builders have been strapping to their machines for
years. A Zoche pre-production engine would probably be as good or better.

--
Andrew P.

[Post replies to this message on forum only]

You have most of it right. Some things you have wrong,

1. Desiel injection timing is differant than on an Otto engine. The
fuel is injected during the intake cycle on the Otto engine and the
fuel is injected during the ignition cycle on the Desiel. On the
Desiel the fuel injection cycle starts just before TDC and ends well
after TDC. The fuel ignites as soon as it hits the hot air.

2. The parts count is not less on a two stroke Desiel, It is higher
because of the need for a supercharger and a way to port the exhaust.

I don't think you would want a four stroke Desiel in an aircraft
because of the increased weight and low power. Desiel engines don't
really produce more torque as a gas engine, its just that the fuel
burns slower and thus the engine cannot rev as fast, but it can produce
the same or slightly more torque at lower speeds, and at much lower
fuel flow rates. Because of this they should be ideal for an aircraft
engine that doesn't need to turn at a higher speed.

You do lose one advantage of the Desiel engine on an aircraft. Because
of the lack of a throttle and the fact that they can burn extreamly
lean at idle, Desiel engines are extremely efficient in stop and go
traffic. But we don't idle aircraft engines that much.

Wandering aimlessly about the Web, I heard Sport Pilot say:
> You have most of it right. Some things you have wrong,
>
> 1. Desiel injection timing is differant than on an Otto engine. The
> fuel is injected during the intake cycle on the Otto engine and the
> fuel is injected during the ignition cycle on the Desiel. On the
> Desiel the fuel injection cycle starts just before TDC and ends well
> after TDC. The fuel ignites as soon as it hits the hot air.
>
etc., etc. --- SNIP ---

It's Diesel, not "Desiel".

--
Andrew P.

[Post replies to this message on forum only]

Guess why?
*Duh* Pollution laws, and no need for the power to weight
requirements of Aviation! Duh... whats that got to do with this topic?
Other than to show that 2 stroke Compression ignition engines are a
proven concept?