Mixing R-143a PAG and Ester oils
 

Sorry for three posts in a row. Just got finished under the hood and its
been awhile.

Napa dude says they will mix fine and that they're actually "the same
thing". I have Ester in the system now, its been retrofitted. Its a 1985
Corolla. Only reason i'm asking is because those e-z charge bottles with
the press top come with oil in them and only come with PAG. (my system
leaks slowly so it'd be more convienent for me)

Thanks

Mixing R-143a PAG and Ester oils
 

Masospaghetti wrote:

> Napa dude says they will mix fine and that they're actually "the same
> thing". I have Ester in the system now, its been retrofitted. Its a 1985
> Corolla. Only reason i'm asking is because those e-z charge bottles with
> the press top come with oil in them and only come with PAG. (my system
> leaks slowly so it'd be more convenient for me)

Try the automotive A/C site, www.aircondition.com.

All I know is that if PAG and ester are the same thing, then why did
only one of them make my skin itch, and why was only ester recommended
for retrofits, at least until about 1995 (I haven't checked since then)?

Mixing R-143a PAG and Ester oils
 

> wrote:
>Masospaghetti wrote:
>
>> Napa dude says they will mix fine and that they're actually "the same
>> thing". I have Ester in the system now, its been retrofitted. Its a 1985
>> Corolla. Only reason i'm asking is because those e-z charge bottles with
>> the press top come with oil in them and only come with PAG. (my system
>> leaks slowly so it'd be more convenient for me)
>
>Try the automotive A/C site, www.aircondition.com.
>
>All I know is that if PAG and ester are the same thing, then why did
>only one of them make my skin itch, and why was only ester recommended
>for retrofits, at least until about 1995 (I haven't checked since then)?

They certainly, at least back in the nineties, didn't use to be the same
thing. I wouldn't be surprised if they are now, though.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Mixing R-143a PAG and Ester oils
 

Mixing R-143a PAG and Ester oils
 

Masospaghetti wrote:

> Sorry for three posts in a row. Just got finished under the hood and its
> been awhile.
>
> Napa dude says they will mix fine and that they're actually "the same
> thing". I have Ester in the system now, its been retrofitted. Its a 1985
> Corolla. Only reason i'm asking is because those e-z charge bottles with
> the press top come with oil in them and only come with PAG. (my system
> leaks slowly so it'd be more convienent for me)
>
> Thanks


They ARE NOT the same thing. They are chemically different. Ester oil is
a slightly poorer lubricant than PAG, but PAG is highly reactive with
any trace of chlorine left over from when the system was running R-12.
Newer PAG oils labelled "double-end-capped" are chemically stabilized so
they won't react with chlorine, and are sold as being fully compatible
with R-12. I'm not sure I trust the chemical stabilization process over
the long haul, but that's just me. In a retrofitted system, I would
always gravitate toward sticking with ester oil, simply because I *know*
it won't break down from chlorine contamination. Even though its not as
good an oil as PAG I figure non-degraded ester beats the heck out of PAG
that's turned to brown grittyt mud due to reaction with chlorine
residues from R-12.

The oils are compatible with each other and both are compatible with
R-134, so oil circulation won't be the problem. IF there is any problem,
it will be one of two things- breakdown of the PAG due to reaction with
chlorine, OR a problem I haven't mentioned yet:

ALL R-134a oils (PAG and POE aka 'ester') are extremely hygroscopic and
absorb water from the air very quickly. They come with a little water
already absorbed, no matter how good the packaging. When you open the
cap to add some oil, they absorb a little humidity before you can close
it again. Even the "oil charge" cans have traces of water in the oil
inside absorbed in the factory where its packaged. Every time you add a
little oil to an R-134a system, you ARE adding a little water. Over time
continually adding oil to a leaky R-134a system will put in enough water
to overwhelm the dessicant in the drier, and when that happens acids
will start forming in the system and you'll ultimately have oil
breakdown and compressor failure.

Short version: fix the leak.

Mixing R-143a PAG and Ester oils
 

Steve wrote:
> Masospaghetti wrote:
>
>> Sorry for three posts in a row. Just got finished under the hood and
>> its been awhile.
>>
>> Napa dude says they will mix fine and that they're actually "the same
>> thing". I have Ester in the system now, its been retrofitted. Its a
>> 1985 Corolla. Only reason i'm asking is because those e-z charge
>> bottles with the press top come with oil in them and only come with
>> PAG. (my system leaks slowly so it'd be more convienent for me)
>>
>> Thanks
>
>
>
> They ARE NOT the same thing. They are chemically different. Ester oil is
> a slightly poorer lubricant than PAG, but PAG is highly reactive with
> any trace of chlorine left over from when the system was running R-12.
> Newer PAG oils labelled "double-end-capped" are chemically stabilized so
> they won't react with chlorine, and are sold as being fully compatible
> with R-12. I'm not sure I trust the chemical stabilization process over
> the long haul, but that's just me. In a retrofitted system, I would
> always gravitate toward sticking with ester oil, simply because I *know*
> it won't break down from chlorine contamination. Even though its not as
> good an oil as PAG I figure non-degraded ester beats the heck out of PAG
> that's turned to brown grittyt mud due to reaction with chlorine
> residues from R-12.
>
> The oils are compatible with each other and both are compatible with
> R-134, so oil circulation won't be the problem. IF there is any problem,
> it will be one of two things- breakdown of the PAG due to reaction with
> chlorine, OR a problem I haven't mentioned yet:
>
> ALL R-134a oils (PAG and POE aka 'ester') are extremely hygroscopic and
> absorb water from the air very quickly. They come with a little water
> already absorbed, no matter how good the packaging. When you open the
> cap to add some oil, they absorb a little humidity before you can close
> it again. Even the "oil charge" cans have traces of water in the oil
> inside absorbed in the factory where its packaged. Every time you add a
> little oil to an R-134a system, you ARE adding a little water. Over time
> continually adding oil to a leaky R-134a system will put in enough water
> to overwhelm the dessicant in the drier, and when that happens acids
> will start forming in the system and you'll ultimately have oil
> breakdown and compressor failure.
>
> Short version: fix the leak.
>
>
>
Thanks for the info.

How will I know when I need to add more oil? I've had to add about 4
ounces of straight refrigerant in the past six months or so but I
haven't added any oil yet.

Mixing R-143a PAG and Ester oils
 

Masospaghetti wrote:
> ...
> Why are they called "death kits"? because they often put too much oil in
> the system or because the gauge is not accurate? or both? ...

Both, and that you're only seeing the low side (and often not very
accurately). Also, they're often used to convert older R-12 systems to
134 and most people don't do it right...they just let out all the old
R-12 (if any's left) and then add the stuff in the cans. Not evacuating
and flushing the system and not replacing the drier and not knowing how
much oil is in it will often result in a dead system...usually
compressor failure. And, if you connect the can to the high pressure
side it can explode with dire results.

If you continue to just add gas to the system you have no way of knowing
how much (or what kind of) oil is in it (or how much gas is in it
either). The only way to know for sure is to start with an empty,
flushed, and evacuated system and add known quantities. At least get a
decent set of gauges so you can monitor both sides.

Look here http://acsource.net/acforum/ for lots of helpful folks & good
advice.

Mixing R-143a PAG and Ester oils
 

M.M. wrote:
> Masospaghetti wrote:
>
>> ...
>> Why are they called "death kits"? because they often put too much oil
>> in the system or because the gauge is not accurate? or both? ...
>
>
> Both, and that you're only seeing the low side (and often not very
> accurately). Also, they're often used to convert older R-12 systems to
> 134 and most people don't do it right...they just let out all the old
> R-12 (if any's left) and then add the stuff in the cans. Not evacuating
> and flushing the system and not replacing the drier and not knowing how
> much oil is in it will often result in a dead system...usually
> compressor failure. And, if you connect the can to the high pressure
> side it can explode with dire results.
>
> If you continue to just add gas to the system you have no way of knowing
> how much (or what kind of) oil is in it (or how much gas is in it
> either). The only way to know for sure is to start with an empty,
> flushed, and evacuated system and add known quantities. At least get a
> decent set of gauges so you can monitor both sides.
>
> Look here http://acsource.net/acforum/ for lots of helpful folks & good
> advice.

Thanks for the input.

I retrofitted the system about two years ago myself but I had the system
evacuated and flushed, then I added r-134a and ester oil (can't remember
how much though). So I know it started with the right quantities.

Mixing R-143a PAG and Ester oils
 

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006, Scott Dorsey wrote:

>> Napa dude says they will mix fine and that they're actually "the same
>> thing".

> They certainly, at least back in the nineties, didn't use to be the same
> thing. I wouldn't be surprised if they are now, though.

Scott, use your brain for just a quick moment: Does what you just typed
make *any* sense at all? No, of course it doesn't -- any more than "Green
crayons and dog poo never used to be the same, but it wouldn't surprise me
if they are now."

Mixing R-143a PAG and Ester oils
 

Daniel J. Stern > wrote:
>On Thu, 16 Mar 2006, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> Napa dude says they will mix fine and that they're actually "the same
>>> thing".
>
>> They certainly, at least back in the nineties, didn't use to be the same
>> thing. I wouldn't be surprised if they are now, though.
>
>Scott, use your brain for just a quick moment: Does what you just typed
>make *any* sense at all? No, of course it doesn't -- any more than "Green
>crayons and dog poo never used to be the same, but it wouldn't surprise me
>if they are now."

I'm saying that the crap being sold today may not be the same stuff that
was in the bottle a decade ago. For all I know, the Crayola may have
reformulated their green crayons with dog poo, too. It's NEW AND IMPROVED.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."