So You Think You Want Computer Controlled Steering
 

Item: Software glitches cause Toyota Prius to stall at highway speeds:

http://money.cnn.com/2005/05/16/Auto...ex.htm?cnn=yes

Now think about a computer programming error that causes the steering to do a
hard left at highway speeds.

Dave Head

>
> Now think about a computer programming error that causes the steering to
do a
> hard left at highway speeds.
>
> Dave Head

Microsoft? Gives a whole new meaning to 'software crash'. Now, that was
totally unfair to Microsoft, lots other software crashes, they just lead the
field in that area.

wtrplnet wrote:
> >
> > Now think about a computer programming error that causes the
steering to
> do a
> > hard left at highway speeds.
> >
> > Dave Head
>
> Microsoft? Gives a whole new meaning to 'software crash'. Now, that
was
> totally unfair to Microsoft, lots other software crashes, they just
lead the
> field in that area.

I miss my 1983 Ford all of a sudden.

Dave

On Tue, 17 May 2005 00:32:27 -0700, "wtrplnet" <alan.s AT REMOVE Spam
intertrader.net> wrote:

>>
>> Now think about a computer programming error that causes the steering to
>do a
>> hard left at highway speeds.
>>
>> Dave Head
>
>Microsoft? Gives a whole new meaning to 'software crash'. Now, that was
>totally unfair to Microsoft, lots other software crashes, they just lead the
>field in that area.

Well, its probably because they _do_ more software than any other company. Sit
back and never write a lick of code, and your code isn't going to crash.

You'd want a team like the one that writes software for the space shuttle to
write software for a computer controlled steering function, and you'd want
triple redundant hardware to ensure reliability. And you'd want mandatory
servicing of the mechanism only by people qualified to ensure that they knew
all the failure modes and how to avoid them.

I think its too steep a set of requirements just to do the same job done by
mechanical means cheaply and reliably. Mechanical steering is extremely
reliable. It'd be really expensive to match that reliability with a computer
system.

Dave Head
>

> You'd want a team like the one that writes software for the space
shuttle to
> write software for a computer controlled steering function, and you'd
want
> triple redundant hardware to ensure reliability. And you'd want
mandatory
> servicing of the mechanism only by people qualified to ensure that
they knew
> all the failure modes and how to avoid them.

And the same people that demand all of that will demand it doesn't add
a cent to the cost of the car.

"Dave Head" > wrote in message
...
> Now think about a computer programming error that causes the steering to
do a
> hard left at highway speeds.

Hold on a minute... no car yet has that kind of steering system. The
electric power steering in a few models of cars uses an electric motor
instead of a hydraulic pump to provide steering boost, but there's still a
physical shaft conected to the wheels. It's no more likely to fail or cause
erratic steering than a hydraulic pump.

The closest to what you are talking about is found in some newer stability
control setups. In an extreme skid, the steering wheel will apply a slight
"suggestion" of counter steering force to the wheel.

"Magnulus" > wrote
> "Dave Head" > wrote
>> Now think about a computer programming error that causes the steering to
> do a
>> hard left at highway speeds.
>
> Hold on a minute... no car yet has that kind of steering system. The
> electric power steering in a few models of cars uses an electric motor
> instead of a hydraulic pump to provide steering boost, but there's still a
> physical shaft conected to the wheels. It's no more likely to fail or
> cause
> erratic steering than a hydraulic pump.
>
> The closest to what you are talking about is found in some newer
> stability
> control setups. In an extreme skid, the steering wheel will apply a
> slight
> "suggestion" of counter steering force to the wheel.

You are incorrect. BMWs' "Active Steering" uses an computer controlled
electric motor that turns a planetary gearset to amplify the steering input
to the hydraulics. It is programmed to give a wide range of variable-ratios
at different speeds, and does give a little opposite lock in oversteer
conditions, as you say.

Although it might be capable of going out of control; it's not at all
exposed
to hacking because the computer in control is the DSC/ABS computer
and that's not exposed to the outside world.

Floyd

"Magnulus" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dave Head" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Now think about a computer programming error that causes the steering to
> do a
>> hard left at highway speeds.
>
> Hold on a minute... no car yet has that kind of steering system. The
> electric power steering in a few models of cars uses an electric motor
> instead of a hydraulic pump to provide steering boost, but there's still a
> physical shaft conected to the wheels. It's no more likely to fail or
> cause
> erratic steering than a hydraulic pump.
>
> The closest to what you are talking about is found in some newer
> stability
> control setups. In an extreme skid, the steering wheel will apply a
> slight
> "suggestion" of counter steering force to the wheel.
>
>

There are cars that have fly by wire steering... New Lexus GS is one of
those, I believe.

Dave Head wrote:

> Well, its probably because they _do_ more software than any other company. Sit
> back and never write a lick of code, and your code isn't going to crash.

Yes, they "do" more software than anybody, sadly quality control and
security they don't do. They have managed to create multi-billion dollar
industries in companies trying to cover their defects, though

"fbloogyudsr" > writes:

>"Magnulus" > wrote
>> "Dave Head" > wrote
>>> Now think about a computer programming error that causes the
>>> steering to do a hard left at highway speeds.

>> Hold on a minute... no car yet has that kind of steering system.
>> The electric power steering in a few models of cars uses an
>> electric motor instead of a hydraulic pump to provide steering
>> boost, but there's still a physical shaft conected to the wheels.
>> It's no more likely to fail or cause erratic steering than a
>> hydraulic pump.

>> The closest to what you are talking about is found in some newer
>> stability control setups. In an extreme skid, the steering wheel
>> will apply a slight "suggestion" of counter steering force to the
>> wheel.

>You are incorrect. BMWs' "Active Steering" uses an computer
>controlled electric motor that turns a planetary gearset to amplify
>the steering input to the hydraulics. It is programmed to give a
>wide range of variable-ratios at different speeds, and does give a
>little opposite lock in oversteer conditions, as you say.

>Although it might be capable of going out of control; it's not at
>all exposed to hacking because the computer in control is the
>DSC/ABS computer and that's not exposed to the outside world.

Less concerned about hacking than the general competence of design
and inclusion of "failsafes".

vis:
http://www.autobild.de/aktuell/neuhe...rtikel_id=7348

Summary:

A Berlin Police BMW 5 series (E39) went out of control for
unexplained reasons late last year. The driver was sent back to
driver training school. Something didn't gel so media investigators
went out and did some testing. When they hit the brake pedal too
hard, (with only about 700 to 900 N force) it caused the ABS/DSC to
be disabled... and it remained disabled until the car was turned
off, the windows closed and the car locked using the remote control.
(Sound familiar?)

The brake pedal force sensor also believes that a load equivalent to
120kg is "implausible".
--
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