147 Cam variator needs replacing, couple of questions?
 

rickp101 wrote:

> Basically before I fork out all this cash is there any way I can tell
> myself if it actually needs doing. Both garages have mentioned that it
> is a big job as you have to remove this and that (I’m no car
> mechanic!) but basically they just said that it is making a noise and
> that is how they can tell it needs replacing.
>
> Can I check this noise for myself? What am I listening for and when?
> The 2nd garage said the engine needed to be cold for them to tell how
> long it makes a noise for.

The noise sounds something like this:

http://www.alfa156.net/tech/badvariator-alfa156-net.mp3

It sounds a bit like a diesel for a few secs after start up

Hope this helps
Tony

rickp101 > wrote:

> I have just taken my 3 year and 2 month old (yep just out of warranty
> ) 147 into my local dealer because the air bag warning light was on.
>
> That wasn't too pricey, just a wiring problem but they have also told
> me that I need new front brake pads, a new handbrake cable and the cam
> variator replacing.
>
> The pads and handbrake cable is fair enough but I am not sure about
> the cam variator. As they quoted me £540 I rang a private Alfa
> specialist garage in Leeds who are going to look at it and if it needs
> doing will do it for £365 + vat which is a bit better.

Still too much, IME.

> Basically before I fork out all this cash is there any way I can tell
> myself if it actually needs doing. Both garages have mentioned that it
> is a big job as you have to remove this and that (I'm no car
> mechanic!) but basically they just said that it is making a noise and
> that is how they can tell it needs replacing.

> Can I check this noise for myself? What am I listening for and when?
> The 2nd garage said the engine needed to be cold for them to tell how
> long it makes a noise for.

The sign of a dying or dead variator is that it makes the engine clatter
like a diesel. It's OK for them to do it for a few seconds from cold,
but any longer than that means it's not working properly.

It's not a job that's urgent to be done, but you'll lose the low down
torque if it's not working.

And yes, the engine does need to be cold to check it properly.

> Also assuming it does need replacing does this price seem fair for the
> work involved? Is there a cheaper option, bearing in mind I know
> nothing about engines so would only consider doing it myself if it
> really is a simple job that I couldn't mess up.

No, you probably couldn't do it yourself. You need to replace all the
belts, including the balancer and cambelt, so it's quite a complex job.
I'm quite happy doing belts on more basic cars, but wouldn't touch the
156.

--
Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300 - Alfa 75 TSpark
Alfa 156 2.0 TSpark Lusso - Passat 1.8 Turbo SE - COSOC KOTL
BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #

Before you spend the best part of £400 (and that will be with a specialist,
not dealer ... nearer £650! ... try putting an engine oil flush in your car
and after a couple of hundred miles, getting the oil changed. I know a 156
owner that had you problem and did this and his variator is as quiet as a
mouse and the car feel better/more responsive.

It's oil starvation. The oil doesn't get up to the variator. By flushing the
oilways you give it a better chance.

If you do end up getting it repaired, get the cam belts and tensioners all
changed ... they should be checked/replaced every 3 years or 36K (although
Alfa still sat 72k). Check on some of the other Alfa Forums to see the sob
stories of owners where the belts didn't last.... :(

good luck
Gazza

"Tony Rickard" > wrote in message
k...
> rickp101 wrote:
>
> > Basically before I fork out all this cash is there any way I can tell
> > myself if it actually needs doing. Both garages have mentioned that it
> > is a big job as you have to remove this and that (I’m no car
> > mechanic!) but basically they just said that it is making a noise and
> > that is how they can tell it needs replacing.
> >
> > Can I check this noise for myself? What am I listening for and when?
> > The 2nd garage said the engine needed to be cold for them to tell how
> > long it makes a noise for.
>
> The noise sounds something like this:
>
> http://www.alfa156.net/tech/badvariator-alfa156-net.mp3
>
> It sounds a bit like a diesel for a few secs after start up
>
> Hope this helps
> Tony

rickp101 wrote:

> I have just taken my 3 year and 2 month old (yep just out of warranty
> ) 147 into my local dealer because the air bag warning light was on.
>
> That wasn’t too pricey, just a wiring problem but they have also told
> me that I need new front brake pads, a new handbrake cable and the cam
> variator replacing.
>
> The pads and handbrake cable is fair enough but I am not sure about
> the cam variator. As they quoted me £540 I rang a private Alfa
> specialist garage in Leeds who are going to look at it and if it needs
> doing will do it for £365 + vat which is a bit better.

What's the labour rate of the private garage?

> Basically before I fork out all this cash is there any way I can tell
> myself if it actually needs doing. Both garages have mentioned that it
> is a big job as you have to remove this and that (I’m no car
> mechanic!) but basically they just said that it is making a noise and
> that is how they can tell it needs replacing.
>
> Can I check this noise for myself? What am I listening for and when?
> The 2nd garage said the engine needed to be cold for them to tell how
> long it makes a noise for.

From a cold start, it will sound like a diesel for several seconds. The
longer it does, the worse it is. OTOH it doesn't acutally appear to cause
many issues with the drivability. Bit of low down power loss and some flat
spots IME

> Also assuming it does need replacing does this price seem fair for the
> work involved? Is there a cheaper option, bearing in mind I know
> nothing about engines so would only consider doing it myself if it
> really is a simple job that I couldn’t mess up.

Well, I was quoted by the man what does my cars a 'couple of hundred' to do
it on my 156. I can't really see that the 147 would be much more involved
or take longer. OTOH Jamie is not exaclty world famous for giving accurate
pre-work prices. OTOOH he may just have been quoting me a good price.

> If there is anyone out there who knows about these sort of things I
> would be very grateful for your help.
>
We aim to please.

--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 75 TS 156 TS S2
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

"" wrote:
> rickp101 wrote:
>
> > I have just taken my 3 year and 2 month old (yep just out of
> warranty
> > ) 147 into my local dealer because the air bag warning light
> was on.
> >
> > That wasn’t too pricey, just a wiring problem but they have
> also told
> > me that I need new front brake pads, a new handbrake cable
> and the cam
> > variator replacing.
> >
> > The pads and handbrake cable is fair enough but I am not
> sure about
> > the cam variator. As they quoted me £540 I rang a private
> Alfa
> > specialist garage in Leeds who are going to look at it and
> if it needs
> > doing will do it for £365 + vat which is a bit better.
>
> What's the labour rate of the private garage?
>
> > Basically before I fork out all this cash is there any way I
> can tell
> > myself if it actually needs doing. Both garages have
> mentioned that it
> > is a big job as you have to remove this and that (I’m no car
> > mechanic!) but basically they just said that it is making a
> noise and
> > that is how they can tell it needs replacing.
> >
> > Can I check this noise for myself? What am I listening for
> and when?
> > The 2nd garage said the engine needed to be cold for them to
> tell how
> > long it makes a noise for.
>
> From a cold start, it will sound like a diesel for several
> seconds. The
> longer it does, the worse it is. OTOH it doesn't acutally
> appear to cause
> many issues with the drivability. Bit of low down power loss
> and some flat
> spots IME
>
> > Also assuming it does need replacing does this price seem
> fair for the
> > work involved? Is there a cheaper option, bearing in mind I
> know
> > nothing about engines so would only consider doing it myself
> if it
> > really is a simple job that I couldn’t mess up.
>
> Well, I was quoted by the man what does my cars a 'couple of
> hundred' to do
> it on my 156. I can't really see that the 147 would be much
> more involved
> or take longer. OTOH Jamie is not exaclty world famous for
> giving accurate
> pre-work prices. OTOOH he may just have been quoting me a
> good price.
>
> > If there is anyone out there who knows about these sort of
> things I
> > would be very grateful for your help.
> >
> We aim to please.
>
> --
> Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
> Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
> Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 75 TS 156 TS S2
> Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
> www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

Cheers mate,

I will have a listen to the engine.

I was told by the dealer that leaving a damaged cam variator can cause
problems and the girl said that someone recently who had left theirs
without fixing it was now looking at £1600 for a new Head Gasket or
something.

Can the cam variator being shot damage other parts of the engine over
time or do you just get a noise and maybe a slight loss of power?

--
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rickp101 wrote:

<snip>
>
> Cheers mate,
>

A pleasure

> I will have a listen to the engine.
Well, it's pretty distinctive.....

> I was told by the dealer that leaving a damaged cam variator can cause
> problems and the girl said that someone recently who had left theirs
> without fixing it was now looking at £1600 for a new Head Gasket or
> something.

That would be a bloody expensive head gasket :) In all seriousness, I'll
check with my guru on Tuesday. In any event, I'm 99.999% sure it wouldn't
be the head gasket. Sounds like they're trying to put some scares around.

> Can the cam variator being shot damage other parts of the engine over
> time or do you just get a noise and maybe a slight loss of power?

Again, I very much doubt it. AIUI (and I'm probvably right because no-one
else has come in and corrected me) the variator is mostly a device to get
past the emissions regs for new cars at low revs. I think it reduces valve
lift and duration at low revs, allowing them to increase again at high.
This uses more fuel and can be less efficient. If the thing jams 'closed'
as it were, you won't get the extra power at the top end, if it jams open,
then you get worse running at idle. Again in any event, I can't see how it
could damage anything, but there are people on here that know more about
it. My 'expertise' is on the older cars, having only just bought a 156.

I will be checking with Jamie on Tuesday though. He *really* knows his
stuff :)

--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 75 TS 156 TS S2
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:22:35 GMT, Catman >,
wrote:

>
>> I was told by the dealer that leaving a damaged cam variator can cause
>> problems and the girl said that someone recently who had left theirs
>> without fixing it was now looking at £1600 for a new Head Gasket or
>> something.
>
>That would be a bloody expensive head gasket :) In all seriousness, I'll
>check with my guru on Tuesday. In any event, I'm 99.999% sure it wouldn't
>be the head gasket. Sounds like they're trying to put some scares around.

From my understanding, it may be seen as a pre-cursor to the cam-belt
needing changing (not causing it - just an indicator). Should the cam-belt
go, then a second-hand engine would cost apx 1600 GBP.

Pete
--
>
156 2.0 TS (2001) - Proteo Rosso

Pete wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:22:35 GMT, Catman
> >, wrote:
>
>>
>>> I was told by the dealer that leaving a damaged cam variator can cause
>>> problems and the girl said that someone recently who had left theirs
>>> without fixing it was now looking at £1600 for a new Head Gasket or
>>> something.
>>
>>That would be a bloody expensive head gasket :) In all seriousness, I'll
>>check with my guru on Tuesday. In any event, I'm 99.999% sure it
>>wouldn't be the head gasket. Sounds like they're trying to put some scares
>>around.
>
> From my understanding, it may be seen as a pre-cursor to the cam-belt
> needing changing (not causing it - just an indicator).

Why so, oh knowledgeable one? I was under the (quite possibly wrong)
impression that it was oil driven?

> Should the cam-belt
> go, then a second-hand engine would cost apx 1600 GBP.

Yep, sounds about right to me.

--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 75 TS 156 TS S2
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

Catman > wrote:

> Pete wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:22:35 GMT, Catman
> > >, wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> I was told by the dealer that leaving a damaged cam variator can cause
> >>> problems and the girl said that someone recently who had left theirs
> >>> without fixing it was now looking at £1600 for a new Head Gasket or
> >>> something.
> >>
> >>That would be a bloody expensive head gasket :) In all seriousness, I'll
> >>check with my guru on Tuesday. In any event, I'm 99.999% sure it
> >>wouldn't be the head gasket. Sounds like they're trying to put some scares
> >>around.
> >
> > From my understanding, it may be seen as a pre-cursor to the cam-belt
> > needing changing (not causing it - just an indicator).
>
> Why so, oh knowledgeable one? I was under the (quite possibly wrong)
> impression that it was oil driven?

I'm not sure - the old 8v variator was oil pressured.

However, I've also heard of Fiat Barchettas (which use the same variator
arrangement as the 2lt TSpark) that have run for several thousand miles
with noisy variators and no other problems.
--
Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300 - Alfa 75 TSpark
Alfa 156 2.0 TSpark Lusso - Passat 1.8 Turbo SE - COSOC KOTL
BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #